Paul Janish. Why doesn't he have enough bat for MLB SS?

[edabbs44]

Thank you!!! I kept waiting for somebody to put it into context.

Rey Ordonez, the poster boy of recent all field/no hit shortstops, had a career .599 OPS and his worst three "full" seasons went .511, .572 and .599.

[edabbs44]

I'm wondering why Cozart isn't being considered for some starts at SS? You've got Janish putting up Juan Castro type numbers, his backup (Renteria) has one foot into retirement and yet I hear very little chatter about Cozart

Cozart's numbers in the upper minors aren't screaming great success either. But it can't be much worse than what we are getting from this duo either.

[Sea Ray]

Cozart's numbers in the upper minors aren't screaming great success either. But it can't be much worse than what we are getting from this duo either.

Did Drew Stubbs' upper minors numbers scream success?

[edabbs44]

Did Drew Stubbs' upper minors numbers scream success?

No, but I think the scouts saw more potential in his bat than Cozart. Stubbs is also somewhat of an outlier.

[Puffy]

Cozart's numbers in the upper minors aren't screaming great success either. But it can't be much worse than what we are getting from this duo either.

Yup. I'm not sure Cozart is any more than a .600 OPS shortstop right now and I don't think his defense is quite as good as Janish. So what would we really be gaining.

And just for the record - - Orlando Cabrera goes to Cleveland and lo and behold Cleveland has one of the best records in baseball for the first third of the season. This after being on teams who made playoffs in, what, 5 straight years?

Maybe, just maybe, he provided something more than just an OPS number and "less than stellar" defense, eh? Kinda like the people who want to DFA Gomes, a very popular clubhouse guy and one of the current pulses of Reds. Maybe the Reds keeping him has something to do with a happy clubhouse, a clubhouse where the guys feel they are never out of things?

But that can't be true, can it?

[Cyclone792]

I think people fail to comprehend how bad a .510 OPS is.

I think I can't even comprehend it.

Here's a fun game to think about. I'll give you (and anybody else) a chance to make a few guesses before providing the answer, in which case we'll all barf all over ourselves.

Anyway, here it is. Below are three 2011 Reds OPS numbers from a time period of at least the previous 30 days. All three OPS numbers have PA sample sizes of at least 87 PAs. Who owns these OPS numbers?

.431
.403
.360

[edabbs44]

Yup. I'm not sure Cozart is any more than a .600 OPS shortstop right now and I don't think his defense is quite as good as Janish. So what would we really be gaining.

And just for the record - - Orlando Cabrera goes to Cleveland and lo and behold Cleveland has one of the best records in baseball for the first third of the season. This after being on teams who made playoffs in, what, 5 straight years?

Maybe, just maybe, he provided something more than just an OPS number and "less than stellar" defense, eh? Kinda like the people who want to DFA Gomes, a very popular clubhouse guy and one of the current pulses of Reds. Maybe the Reds keeping him has something to do with a happy clubhouse, a clubhouse where the guys feel they are never out of things?

But that can't be true, can it?

The other thing that some say in debates like these is "how much worse can
_______ be?" Last year OCab would be in the low to middle .600s and we would hear "Janish can do that and play GG defense". This is why you see teams go get vets with track records, their floors tend to be somewhat higher than the unproven. Obviously Renteria is not working to that effect so far, but Cabrera did last year.

We know that a mid .600s OPS isn't great, but how bad is pushing an OPS that starts with a 4? Hopefully he has hit rock bottom and starts hitting soon.

[edabbs44]

Here's a fun game to think about. I'll give you (and anybody else) a chance to make a few guesses before providing the answer, in which case we'll all barf all over ourselves.

Anyway, here it is. Below are three 2011 Reds OPS numbers from a time period of at least the previous 30 days. All three OPS numbers have PA sample sizes of at least 87 PAs. Who owns these OPS numbers?

.431
.403
.360

Gomes, Janish, Renteria?

[Sea Ray]

No, but I think the scouts saw more potential in his bat than Cozart. Stubbs is also somewhat of an outlier.

Stubbs is the poster child for the anti-SABR crowd. The SABR folks projected him as a 4th outfielder and now I'm hearing superstar being thrown around. Me, personally, I saw that swing and knew he'd at least hit for power and I never bothered to study his minor league stats. I could tell from that swing that he was no punch and judy hitter. If he struck out like crazy he may turn into Rolando Roomes but lucky for us, that wasn't the case

[Cyclone792]

Gomes, Janish, Renteria?

The first two are sort of correct. Flip-flop the order (it's Janish, then Gomes), and you've got it. Those are their OPS numbers since April 20th.

The third is actually not one player, but a collection of players. I now see that the wording of the question may have been confusing so my apologies. Anyhow, think of a group of guys and not just one guy.

[edabbs44]

The first two are sort of correct. Flip-flop the order (it's Janish, then Gomes), and you've got it.

The third is actually not one player, but a collection of players. I now see that the wording of the question may have been confusing so my apologies. Anyhow, think of a group of guys and not just one guy.

3B?

[oneupper]

Here's a fun game to think about. I'll give you (and anybody else) a chance to make a few guesses before providing the answer, in which case we'll all barf all over ourselves.

Anyway, here it is. Below are three 2011 Reds OPS numbers from a time period of at least the previous 30 days. All three OPS numbers have PA sample sizes of at least 87 PAs. Who owns these OPS numbers?

.431
.403
.360

Gomes, Janish and Rolen?

[Cyclone792]

Not 3B as a group or Rolen.

Not Renteria either, though I guess we can technically add him as option 4. Since that same April 20th date, Renteria's OPS is .476 in 70 PAs. I knew he's been bad, but I didn't even realize how bad until I just looked at it.

[jojo]

Stubbs is the poster child for the anti-SABR crowd. The SABR folks projected him as a 4th outfielder and now I'm hearing superstar being thrown around. Me, personally, I saw that swing and knew he'd at least hit for power and I never bothered to study his minor league stats. I could tell from that swing that he was no punch and judy hitter. If he struck out like crazy he may turn into Rolando Roomes but lucky for us, that wasn't the case

I seem to remember making stat-based arguments for Stubbs based upon his defensive potential...i.e. he could OPS around 700 and still be valuable...

I don't think its accurate to say SABR guys hated Stubbs.

[Sea Ray]

I don't think its accurate to say SABR guys hated Stubbs.

That wouldn't be my choice of words either