Cardinals (Molina) crying again

[Strike3Called]

May I ask: How is Molina so overrated?

I'll put it this way. Molina was the second best catcher in MLB in 2011 and 2012. He's the second best in MLB so far in 13. So that's 2 and a 3rd seasons of being elite at his position. That means he's been a fantastic player for almost 2 and a half seasons. Since when do we say players are HOF bound or even on the right track to being HOF bound when they don't even have 3 good seasons under their belt? Saying he's a fantastic player is fine. Putting him in the same sentence as Pudge, Bench or HOF at this point is overrating him, especially since he's 30. We may as well start Wainwright HOF talk while we're at it.

[RedFanAlways1966]

I have no idea and I think he is a helluva of a player. However...

He plays the most physically demanding/depleting position in baseball. He has started 1,068 games as a catcher in MLB. That takes a toll on the body. BIG TIME. To increase OPS by 100+ points in years 8, 9 and 10 as a full time catcher definitely smells funny. Almost comparable to the sudden surge of Melky Cabrerra at the plate. Except Cabrerra is not playing the most physically demanding position.

Make sure this does not get lost (or ignored by our Cardinals friends) at the bottom of a page for those who think this offensive surge is normal... for a CATCHER.

[Strike3Called]

I know I don't see it happening much, so I cant say its normal. But honestly, to me, your point makes his surge LESS likely to do with PEDs. Because if it were PEDs I have to believe that all, or at least half....hell, at least SOME other catchers would take PEDs and have the same surge. Why would Yadi be the only catcher in MLB to take PEDs? You'd really believe he'd be the only catcher to take 'em? The only one in the entire MLB for about 30 years?

You doubt that his surge is normal. I doubt that Molina could improve like this with PEDs and be the only catcher in all MLB to take them. (or benefit from them)

[CardsFanBob]

I'll put it this way. Molina was the second best catcher in MLB in 2011 and 2012. He's the second best in MLB so far in 13. So that's 2 and a 3rd seasons of being elite at his position. That means he's been a fantastic player for almost 2 and a half seasons. Since when do we say players are HOF bound or even on the right track to being HOF bound when they don't even have 3 good seasons under their belt? Saying he's a fantastic player is fine. Putting him in the same sentence as Pudge, Bench or HOF at this point is overrating him, especially since he's 30. We may as well start Wainwright HOF talk while we're at it.

I would agree Posey is better offensively; I don't agree defensively. If he gets to the HOF, which is a big stretch at this point as he has more work to do, it's because of his glove and the way he handles a staff. His offensive numbers will put him over the edge.

Mind you, I never said he's better than Pudge or Johnny... at least not offensively.

Make sure this does not get lost (or ignored by our Cardinals friends) at the bottom of a page for those who think this offensive surge is normal... for a CATCHER.

I keep mentioning and it keeps getting ignored. Look at his brother's production, especially the more talented (than Jose) Bengi's. He became a much better player from 28/29 until he retired after turning 35. Yadi is doing the same. He's learned how to hit at this level and is now become an excellent hitter (at least for average).

[RedFanAlways1966]

I am not talking about other catchers. I am talking about Molina. We do not give Barry Bonds a pass b/c other OFs were not hitting 70 HRS a year, do we? Yadier is better than most catchers (and Bonds was better than most/all OFs in his time). To increase your OPS that much after that many games behind the plate is very odd. The PEDs are more about keeping the body healthy as a catcher. Most men (nearly all) in the history of MLB are pretty much done when they hit year 10 of being a regular catcher. They do not get better and esp. not 100+ OPS points better (like the freak Bonds in his late 30s doing what he did). Almost like a single man winning 7 Tour de Frances.

Anything is possible. But in this era it makes many think there is more to the story than a once in 30 year event (if that!).

[RedFanAlways1966]

I keep mentioning and it keeps getting ignored. Look at his brother's production, especially the more talented (than Jose) Bengi's. He became a much better player from 28/29 until he retired after turning 35. Yadi is doing the same. He's learned how to hit at this level and is now become an excellent hitter (at least for average).

Well we have two brothers doing unusual things in MLB that are seldom seen in the history of the game during an era in which PEDs are a big business. That makes me more suspicious and thanks for that. Think these brothers do not talk behind closed doors and might share information to help their careers get better and last longer? History. Does not matter how much you workout and the diet you have when you are catching 120+ games per year for 10 years.

Of course I do not know what Yadier does and I think he is a great player. But I know that history shows the Molina brothers are freaks of nature in this great game.

[Strike3Called]

I am not talking about other catchers. I am talking about Molina. We do not give Barry Bonds a pass b/c other OFs were not hitting 70 HRS a year, do we? Yadier is better than most catchers (and Bonds was better than most/all OFs in his time). To increase your OPS that much after that many games behind the plate is very odd. The PEDs are more about keeping the body healthy as a catcher. Most men (nearly all) in the history of MLB are pretty much done when they hit year 10 of being a regular catcher. They do not get better and esp. not 100+ OPS points better (like the freak Bonds in his late 30s doing what he did). Almost like a single man winning 7 Tour de Frances.

Anything is possible. But in this era it makes many think there is more to the story than a once in 30 year event (if that!).

I hear what you're saying. And because I have no idea if he's taking anything, Im not going to argue you to death to try to prove a point.

I know you're talking about Molina and not other catchers but its odd that you say Molina is better than most catches. Yes, he is now, but he by no means showed any indication that he was better than most catchers before 2011. In fact, he was probably one of the worst hitting catchers.

I'll just leave it with this: Bonds and Armstrong were always embroiled in steroid controversy. It wasn't just speculation with Bonds, there was a trial, an investigation, Balco, a book....various individuals claiming to have given him or witnessed him doping, etc. Armstrong has had to defend himself for years. None of this has happened with Molina. His name hasn't come up on any lists or scandals, no matter how small. Ill take that, along with the fact that he would have to be the only catcher in perhaps the history of MLB to have an increase in production due to PEDs use as factors to deduce that its more than likely an outlier. They happen sometimes.

Of course one day his name may come up! That's also possible.

[Brutus]

I should also mention that all of the Molina brothers have shown remarkable durability over their careers. AND Benji's best offensive years were when he was 28 until his retirement at 35. I would suspect that Yadi could do that and more -- given he's the most talented, by far, and in the best shape of the three, by far.

Bengie Molina's two best years were at 30 and 31. But he tailed off considerably after those years. Here are his last four years adjusted OPS:

86
98
87
68

He was not ever even a league-average hitter in his last four years.

[Don Cameron]

[QUOTE=RedFanAlways1966;2875221]Most men (nearly all) in the history of MLB are pretty much done when they hit year 10 of being a regular catcher.
QUOTE]

With the exception of Ivan Rodriguez, of course. In IRod's 16th year in the majors, he caught over 123 games, won a gold glove, made the all-star team, hit his .300 BA standard and threw out 51% of any base stealer foolish enough to run on him.

Did you know that in the course of his career... Ivan Rodriguez threw out over 50% of opposing base stealers in 9 seasons, and in one season he threw out 60%. Imagine what the greatest catcher of all time did. Oh...3 times over 50% and a high of 56%.

Oh well.... in Bench's 16th season, the dude was playing a mean third base while hitting a robust .258.

Don Cameron
He shoots... HE SCORES

[jojo]

[QUOTE=Don Cameron;2875316]

Most men (nearly all) in the history of MLB are pretty much done when they hit year 10 of being a regular catcher.
QUOTE]

With the exception of Ivan Rodriguez, of course. In IRod's 16th year in the majors, he caught over 123 games, won a gold glove, made the all-star team, hit his .300 BA standard and threw out 51% of any base stealer foolish enough to run on him.

Did you know that in the course of his career... Ivan Rodriguez threw out over 50% of opposing base stealers in 9 seasons, and in one season he threw out 60%. Imagine what the greatest catcher of all time did. Oh...3 times over 50% and a high of 56%.

Oh well.... in Bench's 16th season, the dude was playing a mean third base while hitting a robust .258.

Don Cameron
He shoots... HE SCORES

Guess who else isn't Pudge? Yep, Y. Molina.

[westofyou]

Del Crandall says he was as good as all of them

[jojo]

Del Crandall says he was as good as all of them

Oh, wait, wrong Del....

[frivolousz21]

Edit: Here's a link for you, and I just picked up the first one that came up with Molina and the HOF. Google is your friend.

http://www.stlcardinalbaseball.com/r...-yadier-molinahttp://www.stlcardinalbaseball.com/r...-yadier-molina

So you admit you don't work with me or know me, but you call me a liar when I say Cardinal fans talk about Molina and the HOF. Brilliant. I guess you didn't read this thread and a few others on here, as your fellow Cards fans are doing it right here. Thanks for calling me a liar, unprovoked, as you show as much class as the typical Cards fan.

There is over a million Cardinals fans in the St. Louis metro and regional area.

You have one link to some Cards fan site. If this Yadi to the HOF crap you say is all over Cardinals Country whatever you want to call it.

Link us to the media articles about it?
Tell me which radio show hosts talk about it and have fans call in about it?
show me the main Cardinals message board that isn't some obscure fan site ran by Teenagers or College kids?

Do you work with teenagers? I could see a possible situation where if you happen to work in a relatively small place with a bunch of 16-18 yr olds you might get razzed a bit. But not as much as you say.


Do you have any evidence of any Cardinals fans saying he is as good as Irod or Bench? If it's been talked about then it's on print or podcasts?

Didn't think so. That makes you a liar.

[CySeymour]

[QUOTE=Don Cameron;2875316]

Most men (nearly all) in the history of MLB are pretty much done when they hit year 10 of being a regular catcher.
QUOTE]

With the exception of Ivan Rodriguez, of course. In IRod's 16th year in the majors, he caught over 123 games, won a gold glove, made the all-star team, hit his .300 BA standard and threw out 51% of any base stealer foolish enough to run on him.

Did you know that in the course of his career... Ivan Rodriguez threw out over 50% of opposing base stealers in 9 seasons, and in one season he threw out 60%. Imagine what the greatest catcher of all time did. Oh...3 times over 50% and a high of 56%.

Oh well.... in Bench's 16th season, the dude was playing a mean third base while hitting a robust .258.

Don Cameron
He shoots... HE SCORES

Sooo, you're cherry picking one season out of both players careers to determine who was better?

Brilliant.

Oh, and as far as those sixteenth seasons? Pudge's OPS+ was 97, Bench's was 98.

[frivolousz21]

Yadi isn't going to the HOF.

He has zero chance.

Anyone who thinks he is does need's to sit down and work out their bias delusion's. Obviously interpretation of "stats" isn't clicking. So bias delusion's is the next serious possible reason anyone could think he has any chance of the HOF.

Arguing the next to impossible like 5+ more years of GG's and current Offensive production only shows more conformational bias.

His odds are like 1 in 10,000,000 that he pulls it off.


Secondly the people who say he is on PED's are just as delusional.

They obviously have never read MLB's drug policy. Or the ban substance list. Or the testing.

Or how long you have to use most PED's to get results. Or how amphetamines/stims work. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Making loose correlations like Brady Anderson or even is Brother because of age and blood relation is pathetic and also something someone under an emotional guise would do.

But if anyone want's to go down that road. I would to, because you might learn something about PED's and MLB's drug testing policy.

Some of you are die hard fans back to the mid 2000s. You haven't noticed a massive shift in the game of baseball? But yet Molina is on drugs. Nice.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/93...-investigation

Cabrera and Braun got caught. Braun got off on a miracle of God. MLB has had enough and is going to drop a nuke on PED users when this is over.


But yet Yadi Molina started using in 2011 and has continued to use. Even with random blood testing now during the regular season. And if anyone has ever done even an hour or research on PED's you would know all amphetamines/stim's have instant effects.

All anabolic steroids have to taken over months on end. HGH type treatments are even more lengthy with less reward.

But yeah, Yadi is on steroids.

Just 4 hour's ago I had to do this on the stltoday message boards about Pujol's age and Pujols on PEDs and HGH.

It's amazing how emotions will cloud you're judgement.