Hamilton for Volquez - then & now

[thatcoolguy_22]

I was very much for the trade when it occurred. Trading stud OF prospect for stud SP project. I will almost always take the pitching blue chip.

However now seeing just how good Hamilton has been it makes me wonder what this season would have looked like with Votto/Hamilton/Rolen/Bruce in the heart of the order. LF defense the equivalent of what the Reds have in center/right plus another .200+ in OPS over the incumbents. The rah rah spirit of Gomes would have been as a RH masher off the bench and we would probably have not seen Heisey yet. This lineup could have been murderous.

Looking ahead I think the trade is more equal after EV completely recovers from his surgery, but who knows how big our playoff window really is?

[Roy Tucker]

The thought of Hamilton, Bruce, and Stubbs in the same OF makes me drool. Particularly after suffering with Gomes for the better part of 2010.

But we've done the Reds version of the Bash Brothers and have a lost decade to show for it. Pitching and defense is where its at.

I can't remember a time when the Reds' pitching was so promising and Volquez is a centerpiece to that promise. I'll take where the Reds are now over seeing a lot of HRs and bad fielding and dumpster-retrieved pitchers.

[bucksfan2]

Hamilton was a serious drug addict. Volquez claims he didn't even take anything. If you can't see the difference there, then I don't know what to tell you.

Liars will lie. Palmerio was adamant that he never took steriods. The same can be said about Bonds, Clemens, ARod, etc. Im not saying that Volquez isn't telling the truth but he is being treated with kid gloves because he is a Reds fan. Had this been Chris Carpenter everyone would have been up in arms about him. Instead they are buying what he says hook, line, and sinker.

You were never building a team around Hamilton. You were using his pre free agency years to your advantage. You had control over him for 6 seasons and then you could trade him or allow him to enter FA if you wish. This isn't about offering him a life time contract.

To be honest Volquez has contributed very little to this team this season. They have been good despite the little production he has given. Hamilton would have made this team an absolute offensive monster. You can continually bring up the "drug addict" line but every in major league baseball is one freak play from ending their career.

[Sea Ray]

I wonder if folks' minds will change if he's the winning pitcher in a playoff game vs the Phillies?

[REDREAD]

I don't expect the Reds to foresee his TJ surgery so it's not fair to work that into evaluating the trade. The Reds did have concern at the time of the trade of Hamilton's ability to stay healthy

That's true, but pitchers are much more likely to get a career threatening injury than position players. When the Reds traded Hamilton, they were not trading out of surplus, they were trading to shift talent into a different position.

I guess I don't know enough to say if one can watch a pitcher's motion, examine him, etc and place a probablity on the pitcher getting injured. I know some claim that there's tools to do that, but I am not sure if it is proven or not. (Just a side note, not using it in the debate).

IMO, Volquez exceeded expectations when he first arrived. He was pretty much a best case scenerio until he got TJ surgery.. Hamilton, despite having some injuries and personal problem has still clearly outperformed him to this point.

Would people trade Joey Votto for another Volquez? I'm guessing not many people on this board would. IMO, Hamilton > Votto just because of defense (their bats are silmiliar).. Although I could accept the arguement that Josh's drug history makes Joey more desirable. In any event, they are comparable talents. But my point is.. Would you trade Joey Votto for a pitcher like Volquez? I'm guessing that not many people would.

[REDREAD]

Hamilton was a serious drug addict. Volquez claims he didn't even take anything. If you can't see the difference there, then I don't know what to tell you.

Manny Rameriz, Palmero, etc also claimed they never took anything.
Volquez failed the test, it doesn't get any more cut and dry than that.
At least Hamilton is honest about his problem.

[dougdirt]

Manny Rameriz, Palmero, etc also claimed they never took anything.
Volquez failed the test, it doesn't get any more cut and dry than that.
At least Hamilton is honest about his problem.

Well, lets make two points here.... You are assuming Volquez lied. Maybe he isn't (granted, maybe he is). The difference is, Volquez has a story that he can back up, now whether that is why he had a positive, we will never truly know, but his story about the drugs he got, is legit.

And at the end of the day, steroids/hgh/whatever other PEDs aren't the same as crack. They just aren't. If you have never dealt with someone who was a serious drug addict, I can understand you not getting that point. As someone who has dealt with multiple in my life, let me just assure you, its real. Its scary. And the threat of going back for them is incredible.

[Rojo]

I don't think there's a team in baseball that would take Volquez over Hamilton given the choice.

I'm going to keep rolling the dice on dominating pitching again and again.

Hamilton's an oft-injured corner OF who's got sporting.400 BABIP this year.

[MWM]

I'm going to keep rolling the dice on dominating pitching again and again.

Hamilton's an oft-injured corner OF who's got sporting.400 BABIP this year.

I don't disagree with the philosophy, I just don't see Volquez as dominant. I've seen glimpses of it, and I have no doubt the skill is there, but he's too inconsistent. Volquez doesn't have the baseball IQ that most of the consistetnly great pitchers have had.

[westofyou]

In 1970 a mess of folks were cursing that Tommy Harper trade AND that Alex Johnson trade, and still the Reds were in the playoffs.

[SMcGavin]

Liked the trade then, still like it now. Hamilton has given the Rangers about 2 1/3 seasons worth of .917 OPS outfield. Volquez has given the Reds about 1 1/2 seasons worth of 3.62 ERA starting. Both pretty good players, but I don't think Hamilton's the player his 2010 stats would lead you to believe.

I think the talent / production has been similar. So, going forward, I'd choose the guy who didn't spend years of his life doing coke.

[Ghosts of 1990]

Hamilton is Hall of Fame talent. He's a guy who comes along once every few decades. Where his career numbers end up is anyone's guess. But I have seen few guys in this game strike a baseball like he can.

The thought of him and Bruce in the outfield together (and now with Stubbs out there) would be enough to make us a contender more often than not even with Jimmy Haynes and Jeff Austin still making occasional starts, even without Edinson.

That said, who knows if Hamilton would end up too expensive for us to keep.

[westofyou]

Hamilton is Hall of Fame talent. He's a guy who comes along once every few decades.

he's this

.312/.372/.544 in 2000 trips to the plate, he's good but hardly a once a generation player.

[Rojo]

I just don't see Volquez as dominant. I've seen glimpses of it, and I have no doubt the skill is there, but he's too inconsistent.

And I'm not ready to crown Hamilton as the next Ted Williams just yet. He can't stay on the field. He's at a peak year (29), plays in a hitters park and has .396 babip.

[REDREAD]

Well, lets make two points here.... You are assuming Volquez lied. Maybe he isn't (granted, maybe he is). The difference is, Volquez has a story that he can back up, now whether that is why he had a positive, we will never truly know, but his story about the drugs he got, is legit.

And Manny Ramerez also claimed to be doing fertility treatements.
Bonds claimed he didn't know that he was rubbing steriod cream on him.
Other players claim they were just taking vitamins a buddy gave them.
Do you believe they are all telling the truth too?
Let's don't make the fact that we are Reds fans cause us to be so naive.
The players have been eductated umpteen times to get advice before putting anything in their bodies.. Volquez knew exactly what he was doing. He got busted, and lied.

And at the end of the day, steroids/hgh/whatever other PEDs aren't the same as crack. They just aren't. If you have never dealt with someone who was a serious drug addict, I can understand you not getting that point. As someone who has dealt with multiple in my life, let me just assure you, its real. Its scary. And the threat of going back for them is incredible.

It's a different problem, but a problem nonetheless.. Without PEDs, Volquez might never perform at the first half 2008 level again. He might still take them and get suspended or banned from the game. In contrast, past precendent has shown that recreational drug users will get a lot more chances. How many chances did Steve Howe get? A lot. As long as he was still able to throw a baseball, he had a job.

Edit... Hamilton not participating in the celebration because of alchohol is a plus in my book, The guy has incredible self discipline and is trying to avoid temptation..