Dusty's Hiring revisited (the original thread)

[Sea Ray]

I still feel the same way about him as I always have.... he is a bad manager.

I would think anyone who's into stats would have a hard time saying that Dusty's a bad manager. He's 20th all time in managerial wins, 2nd only to Jim Leyland among active managers. His win % is decent, better than Lou Pinella's. "Bad" managers just don't have numbers like that.

I think folks who think Dusty's a bad manager are over rating the talent on this Reds team. I would argue this team does not have .600 win % talent. Dusty's getting the most out it. I don't see him doing boneheaded things like Pete Rose did when he continually played Eddie Milner over Eric Davis or himself over Nick Esasky. I understand those that would like to see Hanigan hit in the #2 hole, but that's a very minor thing as Hanigan is splitting time with Mes. I understand those that want Jay Bruce in the #4 hole but I also see Jay struggle as often as I see Phillips.

These are typical fan second guessing and it goes on everywhere. The truth is Dusty doesn't have a lot of toys to play with. Unless Walt improves this roster, their margin of victory will be razor thin

[RedsManRick]

I was fairly apoplectic at the time. I still don't like Dusty as a manager, from a lineup/strategy standpoint. But I don't like most managers from that standpoint.

I would happily support replacing him with somebody else, but only if that somebody else is an actual improvement. And given the way the organization operates, I don't think their view of an upgrade would look the same as mine.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Mostly I'm tired of the Dusty bashing, non-stop, day after day here. I think that we all get it, there a number of folks here who hate Dusty- the Reds win in spite of him, and when they lose, it's his fault. It's tiresome, and it makes this a negative place to be.

Baseball is fun, the Reds are in first place and it's nearly July. This should be a fun place to come and read about and discuss our favorite team.

This is the part that's become the most bothersome for me...and mind boggling. One would think we'd be happy with our first place club. *shrugs*

[bucksfan2]

Dusty hates OBP, loves vets, and doesn't know how to manage a pitching staff. There I got that out of the way.

For the most part I have no issue with Dusty. I can see how the stat heavy fan wouldn't like him. I often think Dusty talks just to talk and deflect the blame from his players. In fact this latest stunt from Chapman is one of the few times I have heard Dusty criticize a player in the press. For the most part I think Dusty has done a decent job with the players he has been given. If it were up to me Dusty has his job as long as he wants if he starts to make the playoffs. If he doesn't then its time for a new manager hopefully a younger manager.

[dougdirt]

I would think anyone who's into stats would have a hard time saying that Dusty's a bad manager. He's 20th all time in managerial wins, 2nd only to Jim Leyland among active managers. His win % is decent, better than Lou Pinella's. "Bad" managers just don't have numbers like that.

They do when they have Barry Bonds for 10 years (and Balco right down the street) and then head to Chicago where they had 3/5 of their rotation compete for the Cy Young. A manager can only be as good as his talent and Dusty has had a whole slew of it. The guy makes bad decisions though, consistently. Manager wins are akin to pitcher wins.... they don't really tell much.

I think folks who think Dusty's a bad manager are over rating the talent on this Reds team. I would argue this team does not have .600 win % talent.

2 teams per season have that kind of record (that is a 97 and 65 record).

Dusty's getting the most out it. I don't see him doing boneheaded things like Pete Rose did when he continually played Eddie Milner over Eric Davis or himself over Nick Esasky. I understand those that would like to see Hanigan hit in the #2 hole, but that's a very minor thing as Hanigan is splitting time with Mes. I understand those that want Jay Bruce in the #4 hole but I also see Jay struggle as often as I see Phillips.

Simply because someone else was a worse manager doesn't mean that Dusty is a good one. When you combine the things that Dusty says with the things that Dusty does, he isn't a good manager. He doesn't get the new things in baseball. Like Rick said though, there probably isn't any kind of real upgrade on the horizon given the front office views.

[_Sir_Charles_]

He doesn't get the new things in baseball.

I've seen new stats in use in baseball. I've seen pitch counts installed in baseball. I've seen the bullpen's role altered SLIGHTLY in recent years. What exactly are these new things in baseball? The game has changed very little since Dusty actually PLAYED imo.

[Revering4Blue]

The truth is Dusty doesn't have a lot of toys to play with. Unless Walt improves this roster, their margin of victory will be razor thin

It's as simple as this to me.

[lidspinner]

I've seen new stats in use in baseball. I've seen pitch counts installed in baseball. I've seen the bullpen's role altered SLIGHTLY in recent years. What exactly are these new things in baseball? The game has changed very little since Dusty actually PLAYED imo.

I've got one example....dusty's refusal to play small ball with the bottom of our lineup....small ball is not new, but it's not old either...guys laughed at small ball until the late 70's when teams actually starting using it to win.

You have to play small ball with the bottom of your lineup at all times, and you play small ball with the top of your lineup late in the game when you need that run...up till last year dusty almost always refused to play small ball....that's a side effect of having bonds on your team all those years.

[Sea Ray]

I've got one example....dusty's refusal to play small ball with the bottom of our lineup....small ball is not new, but it's not old either...guys laughed at small ball until the late 70's when teams actually starting using it to win.

You have to play small ball with the bottom of your lineup at all times, and you play small ball with the top of your lineup late in the game when you need that run...up till last year dusty almost always refused to play small ball....that's a side effect of having bonds on your team all those years.

I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to but bunting more isn't going to make much difference. At it's best it gives away outs and when you ask players to do something they're not good at, a manager hasn't done his job. Hanigan's the only bottom of the order guy I know of that knows how to bunt and given his high OBP I don't want him giving away outs

[Sea Ray]

Who's your best manager in the NL? My best managers in MLB would be Jim Leyland and Mike Scioscia but it's not really fair to compare them since AL plays by different rules.

[WVRedsFan]

Well, it hasn't been as bad as we thought. After first two seasons, we've been pretty successful--well, almost.

What I got from re-reading that thread is the folks I haven't seen for awhile--Cyclone792, FCB, Stormy, and others. Just have to wonder what happened to them. Maybe it's not natural for someone to stay on a board for 12 years--like me.

[Razor Shines]

I was reminded of a previous season's anger toward Dusty tonight.

Sitting in the grass behind the left field wall at a Round Rock Express vs the Nashville Sounds game and the man who comes trotting toward me in the bottom of the first is none other than the man, the myth, the out machine Corey F Patterson. It was an awful scene, I went into a rage. My wife and friends holding me back from climbing over the wall, screaming at him..."what did you have on him?! Where are the photos you sob?! No one OPS's .592 and still gets nearly 400 at bats!!". "How dare you force these people watch your at bats! My children are here!" Obviously I didn't actually do anything disrespectful, maybe a little gentle sobbing.

It was kinda funny though that I actually think Patterson is bad at baseball, it's ridiculous. I considered myself a good baseball player, I played in college, I was better than most people and I wasn't even near being in Patterson's league. He's still an out machine though.


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[AtomicDumpling]

I've seen new stats in use in baseball. I've seen pitch counts installed in baseball. I've seen the bullpen's role altered SLIGHTLY in recent years. What exactly are these new things in baseball? The game has changed very little since Dusty actually PLAYED imo.

Have you not noticed that players are a lot bigger (due to workout regimens not steroids), pitchers throw much harder, pitchers throw a wider variety of pitches, defensive shifting used much more, players studying video so everyone's weaknesses are exposed, statistical analysis has lead to huge changes in philosophy and strategy, improved surgical techniques and physical therapy keep the best players on the field and in peak condition, money rules the game now with payrolls averaging $100 million, ballparks are smaller and actually have real grass, interleague play, the cut fastball rules the game now, Latin players compose almost 50% of the league now, PitchFx, sabermetrics, the Wild Card has been added and the playoffs have expanded, instant replay has been added?

That is a long list of huge changes that I thought of in about a minute and I am sure I left out a bunch of things. No, the game is completely different now than it was when Dusty played beside Hank Aaron in the 1970's. The game has changed a lot since those days. Watch some Big Red Machine games and notice how small the players are -- even the sluggers. You simply can't manage the same way they did back in a bygone era and expect to succeed.

[WMR]

The game hasn't changed since the 70s? The way we understand the game hasn't changed since the 70s? Oh lordy.

Didn't like him then, don't like him now.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Have you not noticed that players are a lot bigger (due to workout regimens not steroids), pitchers throw much harder, pitchers throw a wider variety of pitches, defensive shifting used much more, players studying video so everyone's weaknesses are exposed, statistical analysis has lead to huge changes in philosophy and strategy, improved surgical techniques and physical therapy keep the best players on the field and in peak condition, money rules the game now with payrolls averaging $100 million, ballparks are smaller and actually have real grass, interleague play, the cut fastball rules the game now, Latin players compose almost 50% of the league now, PitchFx, sabermetrics, the Wild Card has been added and the playoffs have expanded, instant replay has been added?

Of course I was aware of those. But very little of that has changed anything that Dusty could/would do differently in a game. And that was the purpose of the original question. Strategy. Other than bullpen usage, VERY little has changed in regards to in game strategy.

That is a long list of huge changes that I thought of in about a minute and I am sure I left out a bunch of things. No, the game is completely different now than it was when Dusty played beside Hank Aaron in the 1970's. The game has changed a lot since those days. Watch some Big Red Machine games and notice how small the players are -- even the sluggers. You simply can't manage the same way they did back in a bygone era and expect to succeed.

Maybe you weren't understanding my statement. The basic game hasn't changed. The rules are still basically all the same. The in-game strategy is still basically the same. Sure, players are different as they hit the ball harder and throw it harder...but they're still playing the game in the same manner. What are these managerial changes that Dusty needs to adopt?