Do Germans? Scandinavians? Ottoman Turks?Originally Posted by WilyMoROCKS
I don't think it's a machismo thing, I think it's a theatrical thing. Some cultures view sport in different terms; some enjoy amping it up with drama and expression, and, yes, rule-bending. What's more Anglo-Saxon than bending the rules?
“And when finally they sense that some position cannot be sustained, they do not re-examine their ideas. Instead, they simply change the subject.” Jamie Galbraith
No I should have mentioned them. Germans abhor diving as well. And their Scandinavian counterparts don't seem to be divers either.
Last edited by WMR; 03-03-2007 at 09:20 AM.
It seems like they draw a distinction between 'rule bending' and the outright duplicitiousness of simulation... is it machismo? I'm not sure. But certain cultures definitely seem to draw a line and create this distinction... it'd make an interesting study to find out exactly why.
He was a bit unprofessional. A lot of what happened in that class could be good discussion fodder for the Peanut Gallery.
No, but personal attacks are forbidden on the site, too.Does this apply to labeling the athletes of an entire nation? Not that I care about the Italian, Mexican or any South American soccer teams. Just want things to be consistent.
Cannot remember who said the above, but can that person step up and let us know if this thread is too political for their personal tastes? If not, perhaps they can make posts that turn the tide so that it will be shut down by a mod.
Thanks!
Hey, you don't have to convince me to go full-out political on the non-baseball side of things.
I loved it when it got down and dirty. I say bring back political and religious threads full bloody time. I'll raise a toast to that!
I just don't dig it when guys like GAC get to take Republican sideswipes ("Hey! White middle-class American men are people TOO!") with impunity. That's all.
Back to your regularly scheduled race-baiting.
“And when finally they sense that some position cannot be sustained, they do not re-examine their ideas. Instead, they simply change the subject.” Jamie Galbraith
I think its pretty cynical, the "Italian Way." On one end of the field, a player will throw an elbow to the face and on the other end he drops if someone breathes on him and rolls around like he's been shot. That's not soccer. It's pro wrestling. I get the impression that in the Italian game, they'd rather win on a cheap penalty kick than a straight goal in regular play.
Wear gaudy colors, or avoid display. Lay a million eggs or give birth to one. The fittest shall survive, yet the unfit may live. Be like your ancestors or be different. We must repeat!
Yeah, I don't watch soccer. You would likely know better. I don't pretend to know what's going on in the minds of men I've never seen, much less met.
“And when finally they sense that some position cannot be sustained, they do not re-examine their ideas. Instead, they simply change the subject.” Jamie Galbraith
I don't think it has to be a racial discussion, but the way different cultures approach sports would be a pretty interesting discussion, not just relating to soccer, but other sports as well. Some of the international basketball has shown some differing styles of play and we saw what happened to the US team there. Pick any sport that's played internationally and I'm sure you could come up with some intriguing cultural differences.
Well, the way the rules of soccer are set up, giving one team a penalty kick can be devastating to the other team. When you see the high rate of flopping in the penalty area and the overreacting in order to "sell" the penalty, you can pretty much see what they're after, not unlike when Craig Biggio stands over the plate covered in body armor. Except Biggio doesn't get a free game of "Home Run Derby" if he gets hit by a pitch.
I don't think the style of play has as much to do with being Italian or Mediterranean for that matter as much as it has to do with what style of play is promoted in the professional leagues in those countries. You see a lot of foreign players, many from Mediterranean countries, in the EPL, the Bundesliga, the Scandinavian leagues and even in the MLS. But you don't see the flopping. Players, regardless of nationality, will generally modify their style of play depending on where they're playing. That's why I've seen so-called "Anglo-Saxon" types playing in Serie A taking dives just like the rest of them. The Italians get made fun of for it because they've carried that style of play on to their national team, which many people watching the World Cup found objectionable.
Wear gaudy colors, or avoid display. Lay a million eggs or give birth to one. The fittest shall survive, yet the unfit may live. Be like your ancestors or be different. We must repeat!
The lure of the set play is a tool of the smaller teams in international play, the latin teams seem to be smaller then the Northern Europeans and in head to head competitions that creates a conflicting style of play, one that is often on the International stage and one that holds greater impact in the end result.
Hence the increased impact of set plays, and the increase in flopping.
In the pro leagues there is usually a mix of sizes and styles that greatly reduces the flopping, mostly because teams strength isn't just focused on skill players, there is more brute strength in the EPL and with that comes an increased tolerance from the refs, with that increased tolerance comes the fact that flopping is looked at as a lesser part of the game and it won't be a carrot for the refs to follow.
Last edited by westofyou; 03-03-2007 at 10:24 AM.
If you think that this is only syptamatic of the Italians, then you don't watch much soccer. The French earned penalty kicks against the Portuguese and Italians in the WC on blatent dives. Watch Mexico v. the US and it's exactly as you stated...cheap shots on one side, theatrics on the other. As long as it's tolerated by officials and the people running the game, then it'll keep happening.
I didn't mean to imply it was only the Italians. I just call it the "Italian" way because, IMO, the Italian leagues seem to represent the gold standard on this style of play. What I dislike about it is that they have some incredibly talented and skillful players who show incredible finesse and ball control. When they just play the game, it's very compelling. Unfortunately, once the diving and theatrics start, the game seems to grind to a halt while the ref cards everyone and they get the set piece ready. If there could be two things I could eliminate from International Football, it would be diving and the offside trap as a legitimate defensive tactic.
Wear gaudy colors, or avoid display. Lay a million eggs or give birth to one. The fittest shall survive, yet the unfit may live. Be like your ancestors or be different. We must repeat!
I don't watch nearly enough to know, but in reading "How Soccer explains the world,"(An excellent book btw.)
They explain that Italians more than any other team seem to play an overly defensive game. Keeping an extra back behind the fullbacks to play "sweeper."
When played correctly diving is almost necessary because scoring on anything other than a set piece or a penalty shot is basically impossible.
Again people who watch more soccer than I can attest to the accuracy of the statement.
Of course you're right. This discussion has been held before on this website and the same people are reiterating the same national stereoptypes. Ignorance is slow to change.
Arguably the biggest stars for their countries, Michael Ballack (german) and Steven Gerrard (British) have been caught on videotape diving, often with great success. Sheffield united manager Neil Warnock loudly criticised Gerrard for simulating in the Feb. 23 game vrs/ Sheffield United - it was one of the bigger stories of the EPL last week. Do you follow the EPL? If you don't you would see lots of diving by players from all countries.
Last edited by Betterread; 03-03-2007 at 02:58 PM.
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