What do you think about Tiant, Kaat and Frank Tanana? I am trying to remember but I think James made a strong case for Tanana.Originally Posted by westofyou
Do you agree Drysdale doesn't belong?
What do you think about Tiant, Kaat and Frank Tanana? I am trying to remember but I think James made a strong case for Tanana.
Do you agree Drysdale doesn't belong?
"Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard
The more I look at Carpenter's numbers, the more I'm confident in my opinion that Dave Duncan should be the first pitching coach elected to the Hall of Fame.
Tiant and Kaat are on the cusp, but Tanana not so much, he had a GREAT career, but falls short.
Considering how often I hear people argue about a guy's peak years and dominating during a series of years, I thought there'd be at least a little debate about Carpenter. I obviously voted no because I put more stock in the career numbers than I do their peak value. Oh well...so much for that one. :O)
He was a bad pitcher his first 6 years, a #4 starter at best. He switches to the NL and poof, he's superman.
I'm sorry, but has a pitcher ever had that much exposure in one league, been completely mediocre and then followed it up in another league where he is mystically transformed into a superhuman pitcher?
Dubito Ergo Cogito Ergo Sum.
Dave Stewart? Though he did have a few years with Texas.
"Boys, I'm one of those umpires that misses 'em every once in a while so if it's close, you'd better hit it." Cal Hubbard
The story behind that is kind of interesting. When Carpenter came to St. Louis, Duncan noticed something that he was shocked wasn't fixed in Toronto. He moved Carpenter from the 3rd base side of the rubber to the 1st base side because it allowed his sinker/running fastball type pitch to run on the inside corner instead of sitting out over the plate. That one simple fix is a huge reason why he had success in St. Louis. Again, Dave Duncan deserves to be put in the HOF for his work with pitchers.
EDIT: Duncan always thought Carpenter had amazing stuff but he was mismanaged in Toronto.
Last edited by MikeThierry; 02-06-2013 at 03:17 PM.
Chris Carpenter and Hall of Fame should never be mentioned in the same sentence. Good pitcher? Yes. Hall of Fame worthy? Not even close.
Boss-Hog (02-06-2013)
He had a great peak, but 4 great seasons and a relatively short career does not an all-star make. If Carpenter is done, Don Drysdale will have pitched 55% more innings in his career than Carp and Koufax would have about half a season on him.
If Rijo had a couple of mediocre years as a full-time starter tacked on to his career, he'd be a pretty solid comp for Carpenter. Rijo plus a few mediocre seasons is not a HOFer.
Last edited by RedsManRick; 02-06-2013 at 04:42 PM.
Games are won on run differential -- scoring more than your opponent. Runs are runs, scored or prevented they all count the same. Worry about scoring more and allowing fewer, not which positions contribute to which side of the equation or how "consistent" you are at your current level of performance.
Pete Rose has a better chance.
According to Baseball Reference, the two most similiar pitchers to Chris Carpenter are Dennis Leonard and Freddie Garcia, neither of whom has ever been accused of being a HOF'er.
Carpenter had some decent years (winning more than 17 games once in his career), and was a tough competitor to be sure, but he's no where close to HOF consideration.
Even if he was borderline, he won'r stand a chance.
Borderline cases like Tony Perez get in because they were much loved by teammates and opponents alike. CHris Carpenter has been generally hated throughout baseball. Respected by his teammates for his skill and competitive nature, even they didn't particularly like him.
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