Joey Votto on 'Intentional Talk' Yesterday

[RedTeamGo!]

Um, not relly - Helton was pretty average from 31-39, he hit 7 home runs in 2008 and 2012 and 8 home runs in 2010. He only hit 20+ home runs once in those years (2005 - 20 HR). He also played in Colorado, which is taken into account by writers. Helton also never won an MVP. Votto won an MVP. Helton was only a 5 time all star. Votto has been an all star 4 times, and I would be shocked if he doesn't at least double that with all of Canada voting for him. If Votto were to repeat 2013 for the next 6 years his career numbers would blow Helton's out of the water.

As of today Joey Votto has the 17th best OPS in the history of baseball.

He has the best 20th OBP in the history of baseball. This ranking will go up if he duplicates 2013's OBP.

If he were to simply duplicate 2013 for rest of his career he would finish among the leaders in the most important offensive category in baseball (OBP) of all time.

[Don Votto]

One more thing--Here are some first basemen through either their age thirty years OR through year seven of the MLB careers
Let's see how they stack up against Votto:
Todd Helton, Will Clark, Don Mattingly, Jeff Bagwell, Albert Pujols, Miguel Cabrera, Prince Fielder

NAME	GAMES	WALKS	HITS	HR	R	RBI	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
VOTTO	890	564	999	157	529	530	.314	.422	.541	.963
CLARK	1028	443	1139	162	605	636	.302	.375	.507	.882
MATTINGLY	1008	314	1298	164	615	716	.324	.369	.522	.891
BAGWELL	1008	627	1112	187	654	724	.304	.415	.535	.950
PUJOLS	1091	592	1344	282	847	861	.332	.424	.620	1.045
CABRERA	1040	446	1220	209	630	753	.311	.485	.542	.927
FIELDER,PRINCE	998	566	996	230	571	656	.282	.397	.540	.937

[RedTeamGo!]

The only number the other hitters are clearly higher in is RBI, if that is your main arguement, you are destroying your credibility.

[CoachBombay]

and games played. He played 100 games and almost a full season less than than some. which if Votto had more games played it would increase his walks, hits, runs, rbi, HR

[Don Votto]

If he were to simply duplicate 2013 for rest of his career he would finish among the leaders in the most important offensive category in baseball (OBP) of all time.

I think, OBP is important, but let's not kid ourselves here. It is one stat that helps evaluate a player.

I think determining the overall offensive power force that a player is, is definitely OPS and OPS+

Joey Votto is there, but, (until these last few games AND I HOPE IT PROVES ME WRONG) but, that being said,
Votto's extra base hit percentage NEEDS to stay in the double digits per PLATE APPEARANCES (NOT AT BATS)--as it did
for every year prior to July, 2012.

If he gets to those levels again that AND stays healthy for about 5-6 years, even with a fall off in aging
that happens to all players, I think he is a FIRST BALLOT Hall of Famer. If he does the 135 walks and 7-8% xbh per plate appearance, then
Joey may get into the HOF

Let's face it... he is signed through year 40 and will get over 1000 RBI(if he maintained a 73RBI average)--but then again his OPS will continue to fall, and he will then become a borderline candidate... in my opinion.

By the way--here some names from the top 50 players Major Leaguers of all-time in the most important offensive category (OBP)
SO...

So, with that being said....

I must then assume that these players are among the all-time greatest offensive players of all-time (if... of course... OBP is the most imporant stat of them all)

Bill Joyce -- pre 1900 (who would honestly know?)

Ferris Fain -- guess he did not make the HOF because he only played 9 years?

Max Bishop --.423 lifetime OBP a shoe in...

Cupid Childs-- pre 1900 (who would honestly know?)

Todd Helton -- certain Hall of Famer because of ridiculous OBP?

Edgar Martinez -- certain Hall of Famer because of ridiculous OBP?

Charlie Keller -- Yankee legend--I can assume he should be a certain Hall of Famer? Oh wait.. not enough quality years.. darn it.

Eddie Stanky -- Incredible production from Stanky... he should be in HOF

Roy Cullenbine -- total hall of famer here... look at Cullenbine's stats. How'd he get overlooked?

Jake Stenzal -- pre 1900 (who would honestly know?)

Riggs Stephenson -- so overlooked. When will the Veteran's committee get this guy in?

Joe Harris -- Seriously--who could have forgotten about the offensive prowess of this guy? Because of his OBP the fans in Boston in the early 1920's forgot all about Babe Ruth.

Joe Cunningham -- Last but not least, hard hitting Joe (Don't call me Richie) Cunningham.

[RedTeamGo!]

By the way--here some names from the top 50 players Major Leaguers of all-time in the most important offensive category (OBP)
SO...

Votto is currently ranked 20th.

Let's look at the top 25 (I don't know why we looked at the top 50)

1. Ted Williams (HOF)
2. Babe Ruth (HOF)
3. John McGraw (HOF)
4. Billy Hamitlon (HOF)
5. Lou Gerhig (HOF)
6. Barry Bonds (not yet, but obviously should be HOF)
7. Bill Joyce (only played 8 years, pre 1900)
8. Rogers Hornsby (HOF)
9. Ty Cobb (HOF)
10. Jimmie Foxx (HOF)
11. Tris Speaker (HOF)
12. Eddie Collins (HOF)
13. Ferris Fain (only played 9 years, hit for no power whatsoever)
14. Dan Brouthers (HOF)
15. Max Bishop (no power whatsoever)
16. Shoeless Joe Jackson (would be in HOF if didn't get caught in Black Sox scandal)
17. Mickey Mantle (HOF)
18. Mickey Cochrane (HOF)
19. Frank Thomas (HOF)
20. Joey Votto
21. Edgar Martinez (career DH, could argue he deserves)
22. Stan Musial (HOF)
23. Cupid Childs
24. Wadd Boggs (HOF)
25. Jesse Burkett (HOF)

Not only were the vast majority of these guys HOFers - they were first ballot and considered legends.

[Don Votto]

Votto is currently ranked 20th.

Let's look at the top 25 (I don't know why we looked at the top 50)

1. Ted Williams (HOF)
2. Babe Ruth (HOF)
3. John McGraw (HOF)
4. Billy Hamitlon (HOF)
5. Lou Gerhig (HOF)
6. Barry Bonds (not yet, but obviously should be HOF)
7. Bill Joyce (only played 8 years, pre 1900)
8. Rogers Hornsby (HOF)
9. Ty Cobb (HOF)
10. Jimmie Foxx (HOF)
11. Tris Speaker (HOF)
12. Eddie Collins (HOF)
13. Ferris Fain (only played 9 years, hit for no power whatsoever)
14. Dan Brouthers (HOF)
15. Max Bishop (no power whatsoever)
16. Shoeless Joe Jackson (would be in HOF if didn't get caught in Black Sox scandal)
17. Mickey Mantle (HOF)
18. Mickey Cochrane (HOF)
19. Frank Thomas (HOF)
20. Joey Votto
21. Edgar Martinez (career DH, could argue he deserves)
22. Stan Musial (HOF)
23. Cupid Childs
24. Wadd Boggs (HOF)
25. Jesse Burkett (HOF)

Not only were the vast majority of these guys HOFers - they were first ballot and considered legends.

So, your only answer for not including a top 50 for the tens of thousands of ball players was that it hurts your argument...ok.

- - - Updated - - -

The only number the other hitters are clearly higher in is RBI, if that is your main arguement, you are destroying your credibility.

OK... this is what kills me about people that overlook the RBI stat-- the RBI is an important stat.

Now, albeit, there are times when there is ABSOLUTELY nothing you can do about getting walked and pitched around.... but... Bonds was walked one year 232 times. 232 TIMES. and yet, he somehow managed to drive in 101 runs.



In fact-- Bonds walked 100+ times in 14 seasons, and drove in 100+ runs in 11 of those seasons.



Votto was ON PACE to drive in 99 in 2012 before he hurt his knee--in fact, without his depression episode and his knee, he would be sitting on 95 RBI seasons--


And, AGAIN--it's not like he had awesome protection behind him and table setters in front of him.

KEEP IN MIND-- his xbh/plate appearance was 12% during this time.

Now, 2013 comes along, and he has Choo who is getting on at a phenomenal clip-- but his xbh per plate appearance DROPS 4-5 percentage points.

What does this mean? Well, if Votto has 700 plate appearances and he has 12% xbh average--he hits 84 extra base hits... doubles, and home runs included. Compare that to 7-8% Now, Votto has only 49-64 extrabase hits during this time. Let's see.... with Choo getting on base at a .400 clip and an extra 20-25 extra base hits... could that POSSIBLY equate to 100 RBI? Hmmmm.....



Early 2012 he was on the walk pace that we saw in 2013 BUT he was hitting 12% xbh/pa and even with the awesome combo of Stubbs/Cozart/Janish hitting in front of him, he was on pace for 99-100 RBI.



Again--I AM SUPER HOPEFUL that Joey's power is back. Right now, his XBH/PA is at 11%, and I hope with his power back, we will see him driving in 90-100 RBI per season.

[RedTeamGo!]

So, your only answer for not including a top 50 for the tens of thousands of ball players was that it hurts your argument...ok.

My reason for not including thet top 50 is that Votto is in the top 20, so why wouldnt we show his immediate peers? The list I provided shows Votto's peers are first ballot hall of famers and legends of the game of baseball.

Also: If you take top 25 OPS all time (which Votto is ranked 17th currently) he is surrounded by first ballot HOFers and legends as well.

His "depression episode?"

Are you referring to 2010 when he said (in an interview from this weekend) that he played the entire season depressed and went on to win the National League Most Valuable Player Award?

[Don Votto]

His "depression episode?"

Are you referring to 2010 when he said (in an interview from this weekend) that he played the entire season depressed and went on to win the National League Most Valuable Player Award?

No, I am referring to the 2009 season when he left the team in the middle of the season.
----------
OBVIOUSLY WE DISAGREE WITH WHAT A LEGENDARY OFFENSIVE PERFORMER IS--
Look--I believe that legendary players need to do a combination of the following.
Get on base Which Votto Does.
Hit for 10-12 Extra base hit per plate appearance power, which Votto did (but did not do in 2013)
If they hit 3-4-5 in the order--drive in runs. which Votto did (but did not do in 2013)
If they 1-2 in the order, score runs... maybe Joey can do this and hit for power now.
Be a legendary producer for a minimum of 10 years (5 more years needed.) year one was not legendary--last year was not legendary

This is a list of a combination of Top 50 in RBI, RUNS, SLG Per and Walks (Joey's forte right now)
The following players are legends--they are in the top 50 in three of the four categories.

I realize these are legends--but these players somehow managed to not only walk, but produce RBIs and slug. That's what I want and expect from Votto for the next five or six years. Give me numbers that will elevate him to a Three category performer, and I am good.


TOP 50 IN FOUR CATEGORIES
Ted Williams
Babe Ruth
Stan Musial
Mel Ott
Lou Gehrig
Barry Bonds
Jimmie Foxx

TOP 50 IN THREE CATEGORIES
Willie Mays
Ty Cobb
Tris Speaker
Rogers Hornby
Mickey Mantle
Manny Ramirez
Ken Griffey Jr
Hank Aaron
Frank Thomas
Frank Robinson
Chipper Jones
Alex Rodriguez

[RedTeamGo!]

3 of those 4 categories are counting stats. There is no way Votto could be top 50 in any of those because he is only halfway through his career.

Why would you do walks and not OBP? Perhaps because Votto is only 30 so he wouldn't have enough walks to be top 50 since he is only halfway through his career? Not to mention his forte is not even walks - it is getting on base.

Votto (non-counting stats)

OBP:

20th

Slugging %:

34th

wRC+:

16th

OPS:

17th

OPS+:

22nd

[Don Votto]

Because Hall of Famers are judged by their careers... and NOT THEIR FIRST SIX or SEVEN SEASONS. If that were the case, then Helton, Mattingly would be in the Hall of Fame. Votto has a long way to go, and to assume that he is going to revert to his days of 12 xba/pa and maintain that--while (yes.. walking is his specialty) 135 times a season. And then MAINTAIN that excellence is a HUGE assumption.

His career OPS will go down, and continue to go down if he has .495 seasons. His slugging will go down. His RBI totals will not be there. The Hall of Fame is a Career Accomplishment.
That is why I used the milestone career numbers. He plays a premier offensive position... Larkin could get away with sub .300 sub 200 hr sub 1000 rbi because he was a SS. That does not fly for first basemen.

In comparison to the modern day players on your top 25 OBP list, Votto is not even close to being as productive offensive forces that Thomas and Bonds were.... and though he has more power than Boggs has some major career milestones--3000 hits most notably... Boston and New York teams.... and not in the Midwest...and a number of Batting Titles.

The keys for Votto's career in my estimation , to make it into the Hall of Fame
1. 310 or better average
2. 350+ Home Runs
3. 1400+ RBI
4. Maintain his level of OBP
5. Recapture his pre-2012 OPS.
Win a batting title, home run title, or RBI title.
Win another MVP

Don't fade out like Helton, Mattingly, Clark, or Dale Murphy.

Because, to me, the list I posted of other firstbasemen... (Mattingly, Clark, Pujols, Helton, Bagwell, Cabrera, Fielder, and Votto) There is two Hall of Famers on that list (if they all were inactive right now--Pujols and Bagwell) The others are in the category of great but not great enough careers...

Now, Votto, Fielder and Cabrera can work into Cooperstown, but they have work to do.

[Tracy Jones]

What if I were to say Votto got on base more than anybody in the national league last year? Is that even close?

I would say no chit Chet no chit.

Is that what the Reds are paying $200 million for? A slow, station to station high OBP player? Is that what this team paid for and needs him to be?

Nope.

Or do they need and pay $200 million for a player who not only gets on base at a high clip, but is also an elite slugger...not just "10th best in the National League" but perhaps top 5 in all of baseball?

Yep.

[Larry Schuler]

Reds don't pay him $200 million to be one of the best players in baseball. They pay him $200 to be the best player ever.

[Raisor]

Reds fans: eating their own since 1867.

[RedTeamGo!]

Miguel Cabrera is already a first ballot hall of famer.

8 time all star
back-to-back MVP
Triple Crown

+ excellent stats. He could stop playing today.