Dolphins players accused of bullying teammates

[Boston Red]

Wiley broke down the issues quite well. The Dolphins players singled out Martin because he was different. He was a Stanford educated player whose parents both went to Harvard, he was shy and quiet in the locker room. He wasn't viewed as one of the guys. Wiley said he had similar issues being an Ivy Leaguer coming into the NFL, but didn't get it nearly as bad because he had street cred having grown up in Compton. But if you don't have the street cred, look out. Wiley talked about a number of other problems with the situation and basically said it was a breakdown in leadership in the Dolphins organization where the inmates are running the asylum. The staff and veterans on the team were either willfully ignorant or were complicit in the harassment.

Was Wiley there/covering the Dolphins? I really don't know, but his assessment does not jive with that of a lot of people who WERE there. Based on what I'm reading today, I think Wiley's over-simplifying the situation.

[Chip R]

This, I think, is the biggest issue. If Martin felt like he was being bullied, he needed to tell somebody. It seems like the treatment Martin received was no different than the treatment that hundreds of other players receive every year, so there was no reason for the Dolphins to think that anything was wrong.

His agent talked to the Dolphins GM about it and Ireland told the agent tell Martin to confront Incognito physically.

[Yachtzee]

He was laughing about it to the team. He seemed fine with it until he cracked. After Martin walked out on that Monday morning, Incognito reached out to him to see if he had caused it, and Martin said no. Now Martin is saying that Incognito did drive him away, and maybe he just didn't want to tell Incognito that. However, with Incognito reaching out to check on Martin, it seems like he would have been willing to alter his treatment toward Martin if he had approached Incognito about it. Instead, he seemed to blindside the whole team

In the last few days, I've heard a number of current and former players say that it's difficult to take anything the Dolphins players say at face value right now because the players are in CYA mode. That along with contradictory statements some of them have made (at first somewhat admitting to having seen stuff but blaming Martin for being soft but then saying that they didn't see anything and they thought these guys were best buds) is setting off a lot of BS detectors. Seriously, if I were an attorney advising Dolphins' players, I'd be telling them to say nothing at all and let the NFL handle the investigation, because the more they talk, the worse they make it for Incognito, Martin, and the Dolphins organization. Right now it's like a bus heading for a cliff and everyone seems to be pushing on the gas pedal.

[Caveat Emperor]

In my workplace? Of course. In Incognito's workplace? I really don't know.

This is honestly a really complex story. I see that the NFLPA wants to get the agents of the two players together to quash it, because they realize both players's careers are getting hurt badly here. That's the smartest move I've seen from any side yet.

It's not a complex story once you realize that an NFL Locker Room is subject to the EXACT SAME RULES as your workplace.

You can think what you will about workplace discrimination laws, anti-harassment laws -- you can think we've become an overly PC society and that these laws are an annoyance -- but they exist and there aren't special exemptions to them for places of business that just happen to be bursting at the seams with meatheads and jocks.

[Boston Red]

The laws apply, but what constitutes a hostile workplace is certainly going to be judged differently in an NFL lockerroom than in a quiet corporate cubicle farm.

And this story is complex well beyond any legal question. That's probably the least interesting part.

[Caveat Emperor]

The other thing to remember about all these statements coming out of the Dolphins locker room is this:

Everyone involved is thinking about their careers.

Public support for Icognito? Saying that it should have been handled "in house" or the like? What else would you expect of guys who will, in the future, be in different locker rooms or working for different GMs and Coaches? Guys in the Dolphins locker room don't want reputations as snitches, leaks, or guys who are disloyal to their superiors / teammates. They don't want reputations as being thin-skinned, or as a guy who you can't trust to bring in because they'll flip on you the minute a camera is in their face or the situation gets hot.

Take everything being said with a pound and a half of salt.

[Yachtzee]

Was Wiley there/covering the Dolphins? I really don't know, but his assessment does not jive with that of a lot of people who WERE there. Based on what I'm reading today, I think Wiley's over-simplifying the situation.

Do you really think you can trust anyone associated with the Dolphins' organization right now? Have you ever been a part of group of young men that was involved in a scandal? Now that some of the team's key players have voice support for Incognito, do you think any Dolphin player who might have a different view is going to stick their neck out and risk getting ostracized like Martin has been?

I was a member of a fraternity back in the late '80s-early '90s when a lot of hazing scandals were occurring and the Dolphins players are exhibiting the classic behavior of fraternities from that era. You get a few mouthpieces for the organization trashing the victim and claiming everything was just for fun and the victim just overreacted. The victim never showed any signs of not wanting to participate and was laughing about it beforehand. Meanwhile, inside the frat house, pressure whether overt or subliminal, is put on anyone who might view things differently to keep quiet. Anyone seen talking to outsiders about the issue are immediately under suspicion. The number one rule that supercedes any notion of law and justice is, don't talk against the brotherhood or you will be out.

[Boston Red]

Do you really think you can trust anyone associated with the Dolphins' organization right now?

I don't think you can take anything ANYONE is saying at face value. But they are the ones who were there.

[Yachtzee]

I don't think you can take anything ANYONE is saying at face value. But they are the ones who were there.

I trust hard evidence, and right now there's hard evidence that Martin was being harassed and that Incognito went way over the line.

[Boston Red]

I trust hard evidence, and right now there's hard evidence that Martin was being harassed and that Incognito went way over the line.

Is there anything beyond the partial voicemails?

[wolfboy]

Apparently. But still does not change the point.

I hate to be a stickler here, but it was your entire point:

I agree that no one has to be okay with being called a ni**er. But if everyone he called a ni**er was okay with it, where is the problem?

[Chip R]

Is there anything beyond the partial voicemails?

If those voicemails hadn't come out or if Incognito hadn't left them at all in the first place, things would look a lot different.

[Yachtzee]

That's not surprising. In a situation like that guys take advantage. It reminds me somewhat of an episode of The Sopranos where Christopher kept having to buy for everyone because he was the low man on the totem pole. Plus he and Paulie had been feuding over stupid stuff and one night Paulie took advantage by buying Champagne for 3 girls at another table. A lot of it is just breaking balls and what comes around goes around. Eventually the low man - or rookie - is going to have some kid buying for him.

It doesn't justify it though. I was a member of a fraternity when a number of hazing scandals went down at our school and at some nearby universities. In one instance, our school's hockey team was suspended for a year and later disbanded for duct-taping a freshman and forcing him to drink until he ended up in the hospital. In another, a chapter of my fraternity at a nearby school, one we had partied with multiple times, was deactivated for spanking pledges, forcing them to act like dogs to the point of eating dog food during initation week, and urinating on them. Our university and our national fraternity instituted zero tolerance policies. Some of our older members and alumni were upset by this because they felt that everyone should go through hell during initiation because they had to. Although we adapted and changed our own ways, we still had old guys coming around who would start giving pledges trouble, to the point where one alumnus was told not to come back. In my time with the fraternity, I've heard horror stories about how pledges were treated in the '70s and '80s to the point where I'm amazed no one died. And they would talk about how things would escalate with each new pledge class, with the newer brothers trying to outdo the older ones in how they tormented pledges. Eventually you have to break the cycle and put a stop to it.

[Boston Red]

I hate to be a stickler here, but it was your entire point:

No, it wasn't. My point was that if a black guy doesn't have a problem with a white guy calling him a "ni**er", then no one else should have a problem with it, either. I didn't say Martin was okay with it. I have no idea.

[Chip R]

It doesn't justify it though.

No, it doesn't but that's how it is. Like I said before, without the voice mail, there would be a great deal more support for Incognito than there is now. I'm not saying that the racist thing made a mountain out of a molehill but it did make it more of an issue if it had been just Martin having to pick up tabs at restaurants or contributing money for a trip to Vegas he didn't go on. The voicemail is why the mainstream media is on this issue like a tick on a dog. Otherwise it would have been confined to ESPN and sports talk radio for a few days then they would have moved on.