Daytona 500

[MaineRed]

Earnhardt won the same way Mark Martin would have won if that crash had happened on lap 199 instead of lap 200. Had that wreck happened shortly after the first restart, the pace car would have come out and drove them home.

But Earnhardt won under different rules. When he was on lap 198 and the caution came out, the field was not frozen. Earnhardt had to win the race back to the line, and he did. I see a lot of folks (not just here) saying NASCAR should of handed the RACE to Martin at the time of the wreck instead of actually having them race.

The reason they did away with that rule was because of safety. Not asking drivers to weave through crash scenes so as to not lose points seemed like a good place to start.

So now they freeze the field and attempt the green, white, checker, one time. If they didn't do this, what is to keep Mark Martin's teammate or anyone's teammate who is in 43rd from driving his car straight into the wall, creating a caution so Mark or whomever can walk home with the win?

You need to remember that teams are out there and when one team member has no shot to do better than 40th, but his car is still running, how would NASCAR keep him from blowing a tire or just getting loose and hitting the wall?

The way they do it now prevents this as a teammate out in front of the field is better than a teammate starting first during a late race restart. There is no benefit to wrecking to help a teammate who is in the lead this way and we as fans get to see at leat an attempt to finish the race, racing.

Yes it is supposed to be 200 laps but it is one of those rules made to benefit, us. Without that rule you don't see two cars, side by side going 180 fighting for the Daytona 500 on Sunday.

One of the best finishes ever and people are upset they didn't get the most boring ever.

By the way, I was cheering for Mark Martin even though I have no use for him. It always bugged me that he hung around the Busch series until he set all kinds of records. He was a top NASCAR driver and he was going for Busch Series titles. Lame. Harvick did the same thing last year but he isn't pushing 50. Harvick is still learning. Martin knew all he could ever know and then spent Saturday's picking on kids. But based on who was in the top ten when they started for the final time, I was hoping for Martin.

[MaineRed]

If NASCAR red flags it before the final two laps they should red flag it anytime there is a wreck... out of fairness.

Fairness to who? The PC police?

Do you know what the drivers would say to this idea? None of them want to shut down their cars every time a yellow comes out so I'm not sure who's fight you are fighting or whom you are trying to benefit and I'm sure most of them are fine with the rules as they are.

A yellow flag on lap 10 is not the same as a yellow on lap 197 as a yellow on lap 10 is not going to force the race to finish under under green. Do you not see that?

Not to mention NASCAR races are long enough. Stopping the cars every time there is a yellow is crazy as it would add another hour to the races. You'd still need to run some caution laps to warm the cars and tires back up and most of the time that is all the caution laps you run anyways.

[Red Leader]

I watched the movie Cars with my youngest instead.

That Lightning McQueen sure was good. And the ending. Never would have predicted that...good stuff.

[RedFanAlways1966]

I'm not on any driver's side. Just stating what seems fair... like a good 3-1/2 hour drive (Martin) is more rightful to win than a good 1-1/2 minute drive (Harvick). I am not in favor of a red flag for any wreck short of conditions that will not allow the cars to get around the track... just stating how the rules change depending on what part of the race things happen. In all "sports" each inning/quarter/period/round is the same... from 1st to last. There are no sudden rule changes for the very end. There are small exceptions like the two-minute warning in the NFL. But in no sport are the rules changed for the sake of giving fans more fun and giving drivers who might be 10 seconds behind a chance to win on the last lap.

I am not sure, but how far back was Harvick when the crash on lap 196 happened? If there is not a crash there, would Harvick had stood a snowball's chance in heck of winning? I agree with the stance that teamates who are out of it could crash to give their teammate the win under yellow. However, is that the reason for that rule or is it done to give fans more excitement? If it is the latter, then it is really not fair to the drivers who have busted their butts all day and are in the top-10 towards the end.

There used to be rule changes in college football All-Star games in which a team could score and still receive the ensuing kickoff because they are behind. All-Star games are kind of boring and the outcome is not as important, so the rules makers thought this would keep it more interesting. That is fine for a college football All-Star game, but it just does not seem fair for a regulation game or race. Fair to the fans... perhaps. Fair to the drivers who are anywhere to a 1/4 to almost a lap behind... yes. Fair to the guys who are in the top-5... not really.

[RedsBaron]

Officials from the Indy Racing League and Champ Car World Series have both been quoted as saying NASCAR should have thrown a caution flag much sooner than it did. One official noted that in October 2005 at Talladega Dale Jarrett led at the time of an accident behind him and was awarded the victory even though Tony Stewart crossed the finish line first. IRL president Brain Barnhart said more than 8 seconds elapsed between the initial contact between cars driven by Kyle Busch and Matt Kenseth and when Kevin Harvick crossed the finish line.
I realize the average motor sports fan in this country cares very little for either the IRL or Champ Car or any other form of open wheel racing, but NASCAR's inconsistent enforcement of its rules is one of the reasons I have at best only been a luke-warm fan of the series.
Frankly, I believe that in NASCAR, a sport in which the France family has much greater power than any single person or group has in any other form of racing, "the show" always comes first, and driver safety is not as important as in other racing series.

[MaineRed]

I am not sure, but how far back was Harvick when the crash on lap 196 happened? If there is not a crash there, would Harvick had stood a snowball's chance in heck of winning?

Not sure but he went from 29th to first over the final 22 laps so crash or not, he was a coming. He had a good car.

Kevin Harvick's average running position for the race was 10.3. Mark Martin came in at 11.9. On average, for the 200 laps, Harvick was better. Not to mention Harvick started 8 spots behind Mark Martin.

RBA, you make it sound like Harvick stunk, had not shot but the red flag magically boosted him to the win. You think he only drove for a minute and a half? You honestly believe you can just do nothing for three hours and then turn it on at the end and win? And you think this red flag somewhow gave him the power to do so? 29th to first in 22 laps, only two of those were run after the red. Harvick had every shot to win and if you were looking for Mark Martin to win, you are crazy if you think he holds off that pack, with only two fresh tires running under green the entire way. Someone would have gotten around him. If not Harvick, someone else.

Martin has tried that two tire crap to gain position before and it always has burned him. This would have been and in fact was, no different. You saw Martin lose control of his car in the final 15 seconds or so. THAT cost him the 500, having only two fresh tires, not NASCAR. Without that minor slip he probably makes up that two or three feet and wins.

Plain and simple, you don't win the Daytona 500 with one minute of good driving. Guys who ran good for only one minute were nowhere to be found in this race. Tony Stewart had the best car and he finished 43rd.

Not sure who saw it but Harvick won the same way Jeff Gordon did in the second Twin 150, by blowing by a bunch of cars, with someone pushing on the final lap. The only difference was the red flag. You can do this kind of thing at Daytona. A push from the right car can go a long way.

In all "sports" each inning/quarter/period/round is the same... from 1st to last. There are no sudden rule changes for the very end.

In the NFL the clock begins to stop when players go out of bounds. At regular times they re-start the clock, not late in games.

How about the replay rule? It is up to the coaches for 56 minutes of the game but for the final two minutes of each half a judge up in the booth has to determine if a replay is warranted.

In the NBA in the final two minutes you get to the line after the second foul even if the team that commited the foul had no team fouls to that point. This isn't a rule James Naismith came up with.

In hockey they have done away with ties and now have a shootout instead of playing for the win.

Sports is chock full of special rules designed for the closing minutes.

"the show" always comes first, and driver safety is not as important as in other racing series.

Safetey is probably the biggest word in the NASCAR vocab and I think this is the most ridiculous thing said in this thread. It is a cheap shot and an unfair one. There was no safey compromised in this race, especially at the finish.

What is your point, the last laps should have been run under caution so nobody will get hurt? Why not just cancel the entire season for safety sake?

You want to go watch an IRL car run around the track all by itself for two hours, go for it, NASCAR is the most exciting form of major racing in this country and we can't even see who is in second.

Safety? NASCAR leads the way. With the new HANS device those drivers are safer than the fans sitting in the stands. Guys flip, slide and catch on fire and then help themselves out of the car.

By the way, Mike Helton is now the president of NASCAR, not a France.

[RedsBaron]

[b]

Safetey is probably the biggest word in the NASCAR vocab and I think this is the most ridiculous thing said in this thread. It is a cheap shot and an unfair one. There was no safey compromised in this race, especially at the finish.

What is your point, the last laps should have been run under caution so nobody will get hurt? Why not just cancel the entire season for safety sake?

You want to go watch an IRL car run around the track all by itself for two hours, go for it, NASCAR is the most exciting form of major racing in this country and we can't even see who is in second.

Safety? NASCAR leads the way. With the new HANS device those drivers are safer than the fans sitting in the stands. Guys flip, slide and catch on fire and then help themselves out of the car.

By the way, Mike Helton is now the president of NASCAR, not a France.

Sorry if your love of NASCAR makes you believe that it should be immune from criticism.
Mike Helton is president of NASCAR, but the France family still controls the series.
"NASCAR leads the way" in safety? Really? What is the basis of that assertion? NASCAR didn't "lead the way" in adopting the HANS device or in adopting SAFER barriers; NASCAR merely followed the lead of other series, and even then it took the death of its best and most popular driver to prompt it to action. Even after the deaths of drivers such as Adam Petty NASCAR did little until Dale Earnhardt met his death 6 years ago.

[MaineRed]

I think you are being unfair. NASCAR went ten years up to Earnhardt's death wtihout a racing fatality and they haven't had one since. Obviously safety is being considered, to a large degree. It is a cheap shot to say it isn't. Earnhardt is the only racer to die in a NASCAR race since 1991.

NASCAR had two guys pass in 2000, Adam Petty and Kenny Irwin, both in practice, both at Loudon. This marked the first time in six years that drivers had been lost in their car after two practice deaths occured in 94, both during practice at Daytona.

Did NASCAR make major changes after the death of Petty and Irwin? I guess not. I'm not sure I follow though. I believe on one of those occassions a stuck throttle was blamed. NASCAR was supposed to do something in the six months between those two crashes, both at practice in New Hampshire to make racing (which hadn't seen a death in ten years) safer before the 2001 Daytona race that would be Earnhardt's last? You make it sound like guys were dropping like flies and NASCAR waited and waited. It was six months between these incidents.

NASCAR had 3 deaths in a six month time frame and one of them was Dale Earnhardt. Perhaps that woke them up more than the deaths of Irwin and Petty. Ever heard of human nature? It woke us all up more than Petty and Irwin.

NASCAR is safe, and besides, the outcome of this race hardly had anything to do with compromising the safety of the drivers. I guess I don't get the whole conspiracy stuff that the suits don't care about safety when one fluke crash that sent Earnhardt straight into the wall is the only on track racing incident in 16 years that has taken a life.

Maybe NASCAR doesn't lead the way but they do just fine. IRL is perhaps safer but they have two deaths in the last four years hanging over their heads.

[Danny Serafini]

I was going to bow out of this thread, since my stance on the rules is known and at this point it's just debating personal preference, so I figured I'd let it go. But as someone who's spent two decades in the sport I could not let this statement stand unchallenged:

Safetey is probably the biggest word in the NASCAR vocab and I think this is the most ridiculous thing said in this thread.

....

Safety? NASCAR leads the way. With the new HANS device those drivers are safer than the fans sitting in the stands. Guys flip, slide and catch on fire and then help themselves out of the car.

Here's reality - NASCAR is an absolute joke when it comes to safety. I can't type my true feelings since I'd violate the board's rules on profanity over and over, so that will have to do. This is an organization that still lets drivers race without gloves for crying out loud! What is this, 1946?

Don't try and sell me the HANS device as part of NASCAR's commitment to safety. NASCAR was the last major sanctioning body to require it, they resisted having the drivers wear one for years. NASCAR had to be shamed into it because too many drivers were getting killed without it. And even then they tried to undercut it by allowing that horrible Hutchens device, which was such a badly flawed design it caused more injuries than it prevented, simply because someone in a NASCAR team came up with it.

Of course NASCAR also wouldn't address the other main problem then, the fact that the front ends of the cars were too stiff and transferring all of the force from the impact into the driver. Everyone knew it, yet NASCAR kept slapping on band-aids instead of actually addressing the problem.

NASCAR has long taken an antagonistic stance toward the safety manufacturers because they're afraid if they require a safety device and it fails that they'll get sued. Nevermind the fact that no other sanctioning body worldwide has those fears and will put safety first, NASCAR would rather watch their pockets.

The way they hung Bill Simpson out to dry after Dale Earnhardt's death was shameful. That dog and pony show they called an investigation was pathetic and an insult to everyone's intelligence. They took someone who's dedicated his life to making the sport safer, to saving the very stars that helped make NASCAR, and threw him under the bus. Mike Helton is a terrible person and shouldn't be allowed near a racetrack after that one.

And then there's the whole restrictor plate fiasco. It's pretty obvious that it's an unsafe situation when you go into the race fully expecting a 20 car accident at some point. But does NASCAR do anything to alleviate it? Of course not, because those big accidents get on the highlight films and drive up ratings. It's not as if they haven't had time to come up with a solution. They've been using restrictor plates for almost 20 years now. They couldn't come up with a better option in 20 years? Of course they could, they just don't want to. They'd rather put drivers at greater risk so they can make an extra buck.

Sorry about going off on the long rambling rant, but this is one of those topics that really gets me wound up. There are a number of things about the way NASCAR handles its business that are a bit unsavory, and safety is right up there. Just don't ask me to go into the IRL's safety record, they make NASCAR look like princes when it comes to safety.

[MaineRed]

NASCAR had to be shamed into it because too many drivers were getting killed without it.

Like I said, Dale Earnhardt's death was the first in 10 years and the only one in the last 16 where someone died during a top series NASCAR race. Again, you're making it sound like someone was dying in a crash every month.

As for restictor plates, Darrell Waltrip suggested that cars would do 240 on their qualiftying lap without them. I guess I don't understand what the problem is with close racing? I don't want to see two or three cars run away and hide like they do at the Indy 500. That is so boring. I know the drivers don't like the restrictor plates but that is because they want to go 240.

Letting them go 240 would be a lot easier of not for those SAFETY concerns that NASCAR doesn't care about.

[Danny Serafini]

Like I said, Dale Earnhardt's death was the first in 10 years and the only one in the last 16 where someone died during a top series NASCAR race. Again, you're making it sound like someone was dying in a crash every month.

Being killed during practice leaves a driver just as dead as dying in a race. Tell you what, I'll let you tell Kyle Petty that since his son died during practice that it doesn't really count.

As for restictor plates, Darrell Waltrip suggested that cars would do 240 on their qualiftying lap without them. I guess I don't understand what the problem is with close racing? I don't want to see two or three cars run away and hide like they do at the Indy 500. That is so boring. I know the drivers don't like the restrictor plates but that is because they want to go 240.

Letting them go 240 would be a lot easier of not for those SAFETY concerns that NASCAR doesn't care about.

Having the cars run 240 isn't a viable option either. At this point they should put a smaller engine in the cars at Daytona and Talladega. I know the argument against it was the added expense, but the teams have to put together completely separate engine programs for the plate races as it is so it wouldn't really change anything from that standpoint. A smaller engine that kept speeds in the same range but provided the drivers much more throttle response wouldn't force the drivers into massive packs where if one driver slips a dozen more get wiped out. It wouldn't eliminate close racing, but it would allow drivers to get out of trouble instead of forcing them to hold their foot down and hope because if they crack the throttle they'll fall out of the pack and get left behind instantly. It also would allow drivers to pass on their own instead of leaving them at the mercy of the drivers behind them. It would be safer to let them run at 210 with a more responsive engine than to run 185 with the plates and (in my opinion) produce better racing.

[MaineRed]

Being killed during practice leaves a driver just as dead as dying in a race. Tell you what, I'll let you tell Kyle Petty that since his son died during practice that it doesn't really count.

Of course it counts to those who knew him, like his family but it still doesn't mean it happened during a race. My point is simple, if NASCAR didn't care about safety, or whatever it is that you are saying, there would be more deaths than one in the last 16 years and I'd gladly make this point to Kyle Petty if you want to produce him.

Afterwards I'll let you explain to Mike Helton that he shouldn't be allowed inside the track.

A smaller engine that kept speeds in the same range but provided the drivers much more throttle response wouldn't force the drivers into massive packs

These massive packs are usually a result of caution flags. There is no way around this. You have late race cautions, you are going to have bunched up drivers who want to win. Smaller engines that go faster are not going to solve this.

Since this is a baseball board, I'm curious as to what rule changes you would expect baseball to make if a couple of coaches were killed during batting practice after being drilled in the head while tossing BP?

Would you expect Selig to order nets placed in front of the pitchers during actual games so as to not compromise safety?

[MaineRed]

210 with a more responsive engine than to run 185 with the plates

How is this safer? Going 25 MPH higher is safer?

Maybe you reduce the risk of wrecks but what happens when wrecks do occur and the top speed has been increased by 25 MPH?

You can't tell me that would be, SAFER?

[flyer85]

NASCAR - rasslin' on wheels

It is the combination of the WWF and soap operas.

[MaineRed]

It is nothing like that, but whatever.