It's amazing to me that Willy Taveras gets pulled into the discussion on the new pitching coach. The Willy Taveras issue was the contract not the thought that they could improve his game. If Willy had been brought in on a one yr $500K contract there'd be no problem with it.
Yep...just because there isn't a stat to definitively measure something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.Originally Posted by westofyou
Triple negative, anyone?
People would have less of a problem with what he's getting paid, yes. They would still have a huge issue with the 400+ plate appearances he got this past season though.
I'm guessing Bill Bavasi is the reason for the hire. Was he not the GM in Seattle when Price was the pitching coach? I'm not sure, but I'm guessing he was, at least, in the organization then.
"My mission is to be the ray of hope, the guy who stands out there on that beautiful field and owns up to his mistakes and lets people know it's never completely hopeless, no matter how bad it seems at the time. I have a platform and a message, and now I go to bed at night, sober and happy, praying I can be a good messenger." -Josh Hamilton
I hate to even bring this up, but can we even completely contribute Carpenter's success to Duncan in this day and age? Are we REALLY sure it had more to do with Duncan, and less to do with possible performance enhancing drugs?
I don't like to point fingers and speculate, and I have no idea whether Carpenter has ever dabbled with the stuff or not. But one has to wonder.
Well, he was pretty damn good this year. I assume he's tested like everyone else, and he hasn't been named or hinted at in the report BA says he is likely in.
But something changed for him as a pitcher. And I think that change was Duncan.
Last edited by TRF; 10-19-2009 at 12:11 PM.
Dubito Ergo Cogito Ergo Sum.
I'd say there is less of a chance that Carpenter has used PEDs than there is that you really hated to bring this up or point fingers and speculate.
Price predated Bavasi.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
I thought that Price was there with both Gillick and Bavasi.
He was.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
I see no reason at all to complain about this hire. You have a respected guy with a decent track record coming in to work with young pitchers; what's not to like?
It is on the whole probable that we continually dream, but that consciousness makes such a noise that we do not hear it. Carl Jung.
The same could have been said about Dick Pole.... I get the impression that redszone generally doesn't like him though.
Last edited by jojo; 10-19-2009 at 05:16 PM.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
That's not really the argument though (i.e. it doesn't exist if it can't be measured).
The argument is that if it can't be measured, then the effect isn't likely to be big.
That's two dramatically different things.
In other words, think of the talent distribution of major league-capable pitching coaches in terms of something shaped like a bell curve with poor being on the left and exceptional being toward the right. It's not a normal curve because individuals who clearly aren't up to snuff drop away very quickly into oblivion so the curve is skewed toward the right. It's likely a pretty steep, narrow curve as the majority of individuals are grouped tightly around the mean (because it's tough to demonstrate differences in their effects on a team's RS/RA) with outliers (perhaps Dave Duncan) being fairly fair to the right (thus the skew to the right). This makes sense because baseball pretty much selects for a certain mindset/approach and generally changes occur fairly slowly. Guys who stick around generally fit a certain mold. Case in point, how many pitching coaches are usually interviewed for managerial openings given the stigma that they don't make good managers? Certainly that cant be actually true can it? it's part of the culture of baseball though.
This doesn't mean that there aren't true differences between the guys grouped in the middle because almost certainly there is a talent distribution even with pitching coaches. But rather, the differences, if they exist, are fairly small and as a result, they (real differences) require a very large sample size in order to be able to detect them with confidence. Thus, a guy might need to be 10-15 years into his career before his effect starts to be detectably different than another guy. If it takes that long to detect a difference, is it really practical to hire a guy based upon a presumed difference in his effect on a team's chances of winning? In practical terms, not really. In essence, pitching coaches are generally fairly interchangeable.
Why do some pitching coaches hang around a long time while others seem not too? "Good baseball men" tend to hang around a long time. The longer you hang around, the more proven you are... Now there are underlying skills that cement the reputation-don't think the argument is that such skills don't exist or aren't of value. But in general, an organization looks for a guy who fits into their culture (both the FO and the clubhouse), shares a philosophy that won't run counter to the beliefs of the ones making the decisions, and can support the manager. None of this is a bad thing or a pejorative at all. It makes perfect sense actually. It's also just mostly no real big deal.
Welcome to Cincinnati, Bryan. We all wish you the best and hope you have your greatest success as a Red. Now go prove me a wiggser.
Last edited by jojo; 10-19-2009 at 05:44 PM.
"This isn’t stats vs scouts - this is stats and scouts working together, building an organization that blends the best of both worlds. This is the blueprint for how a baseball organization should be run. And, whether the baseball men of the 20th century like it or not, this is where baseball is going."---Dave Cameron, U.S.S. Mariner
Something other than the pitching coach changed for carp.
Health.
Dude had a lot of health issues when he was a blue bird.
"I hate to advocate chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone... But they've always worked for me."
-Hunter S. Thompson
Health alone doesn't account for almost 2 full runs lower ERA and a WHIP that went from 1.5 to 1.0.
nope, not buying it.
Duncan fixed him good. Health was a big part of it, but he posted two seasons of 27 and 34 starts and stunk both years in TOR.
Or we could look at Kyle Lohse, who had his best year as a Cardinal last year, 200 IP 3.78 ERA. Hurt a lot this year he still posted a respectable 4.74 ERA.
Last edited by TRF; 10-19-2009 at 05:44 PM.
Dubito Ergo Cogito Ergo Sum.
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