Brandon Phillips Batting 2nd

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by Raisor

score more early runs, less worry about the opposing team's bullpen.

It also pretty much forces the other team to switch pitchers whether they want to or not. It is good to make the other team react and adapt rather than letting them dictate the terms to us.

Make them take out the starting pitcher and burn their LOOGY early in the game and force them to use their weakest relief pitchers rather than letting their starter go deep into the game and then use their tough lefty specialist against Votto and Bruce in the 7th or 8th inning before bringing in their closer.

Against a right-handed starting pitcher it makes perfect sense to have Choo, Votto, then Bruce lead off the game in the first inning. It is a great chance to bury the opponent in a hole early, then when those three lefties come up again the opponent is likely to switch pitchers early in the game, which means the Reds will be into their bullpen in the middle innings and facing their middle relievers, which is always a good thing because those guys are middle relievers for a reason -- they are not very good pitchers.

[Superdude]

This thread confuses me. I'll admit, I haven't been following the ongoing analysis of batting orders like I should, but can someone explain when batting middle of the order hitters 1-2-3 became the vogue thing to do?

[Raisor]

Originally Posted by Superdude

This thread confuses me. I'll admit, I haven't been following the ongoing analysis of batting orders like I should, but can someone explain when batting middle of the order hitters 1-2-3 became the vogue thing to do?

Originally Posted by Raisor

I've always wanted Bruce in the 2 hole.

More PAs than in the five slot.
More fastballs hitting in front of Votto.

I want the three best offensive players on the team coming up in the first inning. Right now that's Choo, Bruce, and Votto.

[smixsell]

Originally Posted by Raisor

score more early runs, less worry about the opposing team's bullpen.

In this I agree wholeheartedly. It aggravates the **** out of me when Dusty refuses to put a few lefties in a row against a righthanded starting pitcher because he's worrying about what they "might" be able to do to us in the late innigs with a LH reliever.

[smixsell]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

It also pretty much forces the other team to switch pitchers whether they want to or not. It is good to make the other team react and adapt rather than letting them dictate the terms to us.

Make them take out the starting pitcher and burn their LOOGY early in the game and force them to use their weakest relief pitchers rather than letting their starter go deep into the game and then use their tough lefty specialist against Votto and Bruce in the 7th or 8th inning before bringing in their closer.

Against a right-handed starting pitcher it makes perfect sense to have Choo, Votto, then Bruce lead off the game in the first inning. It is a great chance to bury the opponent in a hole early, then when those three lefties come up again the opponent is likely to switch pitchers early in the game, which means the Reds will be into their bullpen in the middle innings and facing their middle relievers, which is always a good thing because those guys are middle relievers for a reason -- they are not very good pitchers.

Totally agree.

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by Superdude

This thread confuses me. I'll admit, I haven't been following the ongoing analysis of batting orders like I should, but can someone explain when batting middle of the order hitters 1-2-3 became the vogue thing to do?

Don't worry about it, there's zero chance of it happening.

[smixsell]

Originally Posted by Kc61

Don't worry about it, there's zero chance of it happening.

Sadly, only too true

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by smixsell

Sadly, only too true

If I had more patience to debate this, I would ask the utility of hitting three lefties in a row -- followed by five (usually six) righties in a row.

It seems to me to make it very easy for the opposition to set up its pitching in the late innings.

I think before you decide on hitters one, two and three -- you have to see which guys remain to hit four, five, six, seven, and eight.

Of course, some posters think lefty/righty matchups are irrelevant. I strongly disagree with that, but it seems to be an opinion some have.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Superdude

This thread confuses me. I'll admit, I haven't been following the ongoing analysis of batting orders like I should, but can someone explain when batting middle of the order hitters 1-2-3 became the vogue thing to do?

It isn't. What intrigues me is that one of the most common complaints is that we need to get more OBP in front of Votto. Unless the lower OBP is coming from Jay, then all previous rules fly out the window.

[Raisor]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

It isn't. What intrigues me is that one of the most common complaints is that we need to get more OBP in front of Votto. Unless the lower OBP is coming from Jay, then all previous rules fly out the window.

Jay Bruce career OBP .330
BP's OBP as a Red .329

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Raisor

Jay Bruce career OBP .330
BP's OBP as a Red .329

But you weren't saying you want Bruce over BP. You said you've always wanted Bruce there.

Someone needs to knock in the guy with the highest OBP on the team.

[Raisor]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

But you weren't saying you want Bruce over BP. You said you've always wanted Bruce there.

Someone needs to knock in the guy with the highest OBP on the team.

I like OBP and power in the two slot, always have.


Let me rephrase: I like OBP/SLG in EVERY slot, always have.

I want the three best offensive players on the team coming up in the first inning. Right now that's Choo, Bruce, and Votto.

[*BaseClogger*]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

But you weren't saying you want Bruce over BP. You said you've always wanted Bruce there.

Someone needs to knock in the guy with the highest OBP on the team.

That's why Votto should bat second and Bruce should hit fourth...

[TRF]

Votto vs LH pitching last three years: .302 .407 .506

I do not care if they bring a LOOGY in to face him..

Bruce vs LH pitching last three years: .247 .322 .495
Not as good, but he still punishes them with power.

I'd have zero problem batting them back to back

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by TRF

Votto vs LH pitching last three years: .302 .407 .506

I do not care if they bring a LOOGY in to face him..

Bruce vs LH pitching last three years: .247 .322 .495
Not as good, but he still punishes them with power.

I'd have zero problem batting them back to back

I'm sorry, forgive me, I can't figure out what numbers you are providing. Just don't know what the numbers represent.

Generally, Votto has been better against righties (although better v. lefties in 2011), but is obviously excellent against all pitching.

Bruce may "punish lefties with power" but he hit .225 against lefties, .754 OPS last year, and struck out 56 times in 194 PAs against lefties. Lifetime .231 hitter against lefties and .747 OPS, with 233 Ks in 837 PAs.

OBP, against lefties, Bruce last year was .304. Lifetime is .310. These numbers would affect his hitting second against LHP.

For a left handed power hitter, Bruce is fine against lefties, but there is no compelling case for him to hit cleanup against them. For that matter, there is no compelling case for him to hit second against them.