Your Official 2004 Election Day Thread

[MWM]

Ultimately, I think it was a mistake for Kerry to focus on Iraq. His change of position mid-campaign turned off a lot of people. In hindsight, maybe he should have made Iraq a non-issue by agreeing with going there and not making that a difference between him and the President. Then he could have focused more on domestic issues and the economy. I think focusing too much on Iraq was a losing battle for Kerry.

[Unassisted]

Originally Posted by jmcclain19

McCain won't run in 2008.

You can consider this my firm prediction.

The rumor out here in AZ is that he won't finish his term he was elected to just last night.

Who's likely to get his seat, jmc?

Ever so slightly off-topic, whatever happened to Evan Mechem? Didn't he do jail time?

[WVRed]

Originally Posted by MWM

Ultimately, I think it was a mistake for Kerry to focus on Iraq. His change of position mid-campaign turned off a lot of people. In hindsight, maybe he should have made Iraq a non-issue by agreeing with going there and not making that a difference between him and the President. Then he could have focused more on domestic issues and the economy. I think focusing too much on Iraq was a losing battle for Kerry.

If morality was the big issue of the election, I dont think there was much that Kerry could have said or done to have swayed the vote.

Kerry could preach a Great Depression and a terrorist attack if Bush stayed in office all he wanted, but in the eyes of the Christians, the above would have happened anyways if we were killing babies and allowing homosexuals to marry, and they showed up to vote for Bush.

I think Pat Buchanon put it best last night on MSNBC when he said God, Gays, and Guns decided West Virginia. That could be the case for the whole election.

[MWM]

This from Zogby regarding their pre-election polls"

"“We feel strongly that our pre-election polls were accurate on virtually every state. Our predictions on many of the key battleground states like Ohio and Florida were within the margin of error. I thought we captured a trend, but apparently that result didn’t materialize.


“We always saw a close race, and a close race is what we’ve got. I’ve called this the Armageddon Election for some time—a closely-divided electorate with high partisan intensity on each side."

[OldXOhio]

Originally Posted by MWM

Ultimately, I think it was a mistake for Kerry to focus on Iraq. His change of position mid-campaign turned off a lot of people. In hindsight, maybe he should have made Iraq a non-issue by agreeing with going there and not making that a difference between him and the President. Then he could have focused more on domestic issues and the economy. I think focusing too much on Iraq was a losing battle for Kerry.

Agreed, yet I find it rather interesting that some of the pundits are now saying in hindsight, perhaps a more anti-war candidate, like Howard Dean, could have fared better. Personally, I couldn't disagree with that contention any more, if for no other reason that Dean wasn't electable.

[princeton]

Originally Posted by CbusRed

This is a great day for conservative America.
:gac:

probably true. The interesting thing will be whether there's any effect on the people that have kept America on the cutting edge: the ones that have built IT, pharma, entertainment. They're all in blue states. You couldn't pay 'em enough to go to a red state, especially now. There's long been a brain drain from red to blue. Will it extend to a brain drain from blue to overseas?

do they continue to build their coastal havens, or do they look to other places where there are real civil liberties (you know, like voting), where there's equal opportunity, where the general welfare really is promoted, where actual lives of innocent foreign citizens are deemed more important than the fears of domestic citizenry, where there's governance by law, logic and civil rights, not by paranoia and religion?

Not predicting a mass exodus as a result of conscience or anything, but it's notable that key jobs are already leaving and that it's natural for key workers to follow. And at least this morning, it's easier to think about leaving

but all they ever do (besides drive the economy) is drone on about civil liberties, equal opportunity, and four freedoms. And who needs that

[DunnersGrl44]

THIS IS A GREAT DAY FOR ALLLLLLLLLL OF AMERICA.
:gac: BUSH :gac:

[M2]

Originally Posted by MWM

Actually, it's not. It was a thread started by M2 around the time of the Iowa caucus. I think the title was something like "Kerry just good enough to lose."

I think I used "just good enough to lose" in another thread. Also suggested Kerry relocate to Ohio after he'd salted away the primaries.

The Dems bet that Kerry could stand there and look presidential and that would win the day for them. IMO, it's symptomatic of a larger problem -- it's a party that's run out of big ideas. Whether you like the Republicans' big ideas, they have them -- eliminate all taxes on wealth, throw your military weight around, institutionalize a conservative social agenda.

That's why I thought it was critical the Dems throw in behind Dean. He was the only candidate they had who was able to wrap himself around big ideas. Dean was the one candidate who was going to deliver health care. That would have been a big bone to throw to the Democratic base. Yet he also had some untraditional (for the Dems) ideas. Fiscal responsibility -- something Kerry couldn't sell with his Senate background and vague proposals -- in opposition to what he called "borrow and spend" Republicans. Dean also pushed small government in a way you rarely see from Dems, particularly on the social front. He never crystallized it, but he was getting close. The core of it was that he wanted government off your back. In Dean's construct (which, again, he hadn't fully formed, but the skeleton had been erected), gays and gun owners were just going to have to deal with one another.

He also had a real cool small business stimulus program (which fit in with a consistent pro-individual, anti-corporate stance) and, supposedly, he was going to cut the payroll tax (a massive departure for the Dems). On top of that, Dean skewered Iraq, calling the Bush lead-up to the war overblown, calling it an inevitable quagmire before the invasion, insisting that it was a blind alley that would veer us away from a real war on terrorism.

Dean may not have won. Swing voters may not have cottoned to him, but he wouldn't have been arguing with Bush about flip-flops and he a lot to offer old style, small government conservatives (an almost totally disenfranchised group of voters these days). He was right about trying to appeal to the guy with the confederate flag sticker on his pickup.

It's a party that desperately need to redefine what it's all about.

[Puffy]

Originally Posted by DunnersGrl44

THIS IS A GREAT DAY FOR ALLLLLLLLLL OF AMERICA.
:gac: BUSH :gac:

No, its not a great day for all America - it might be a great day for you, but it sure ain't for me.

[DunnersGrl44]

Originally Posted by Puffy

No, its not a great day for all America - it might be a great day for you, but it sure ain't for me.

All I'm saying is... If Bin Laden wants Kerry in office... that is the last person in the world I want in office. We would be a REALLY big target the minute that Kerry was signed in. I am thrilled. Cause now, I can sit back and relax. Bush is great. and most of America agrees with me

[creek14]

Originally Posted by Puffy

No, its not a great day for all America - it might be a great day for you, but it sure ain't for me.

Yeah it stinks when you put the guy back in office who has done what it takes to keep us from being attacked again.

Sure would have rather had Kerry in there cutting defense, missile, intel, etc spending.

The chatter has been when Kerry wins it'll be a lot easier to get to them (us) on their homeland.

Ohhh, that would have been fun.

[Falls City Beer]

"He was right about trying to appeal to the guy with the confederate flag sticker on his pickup."

I agree with a handful of your points, but I wholeheartedly disagree with this. The Democratic party needs to find a way to push these people to the margins in the way that the small government moderate conservative (I agree with this point particularly--and I have sympathy for their position) has recently been pushed to the margins. There needs to be an ense rescindendum on these people; they're a cancer that needs to be cut out, not courted. The Dems need to sell anger better; they need to control the social dialogue.

Honestly, the Repubs don't have "big ideas." They simply recycle the old "fear and hate" mantras they've been spouting since Nixon. Don't get me wrong, these things work, but they're clearly not "big ideas."

[Puffy]

Originally Posted by DunnersGrl44

All I'm saying is... If Bin Laden wants Kerry in office... that is the last person in the world I want in office. We would be a REALLY big target the minute that Kerry was signed in. I am thrilled. Cause now, I can sit back and relax. Bush is great. and most of America agrees with me

Well, I'll tell you what - you're in college right now, and I believe you will be graduating while Bush is in office. Once you get out and try to find a job let me know then if you're still glad.

I started school while Clinton was in office and the jobs within 6 months out of Tulane was 96%. I graduated when Bush was in office and the jobs out of my class were 80%. This past year they were 75%.

I know a lot of people disagree with me that Bush and the conservative policies affected my job market, but I talked to employers and I talked to firms who were not even hiring but rather downsizing and from what they told me it mattered.

There are people in my office who were getting 10%-20% raises before Bush and know my firm is around 5% - yet we have more clients then ever.

I'm just sayin, people can disagree and people can be happy, but this is what i've seen and I, for one, am not happy about My Country's direction.

[Puffy]

Originally Posted by creek14

Yeah it stinks when you put the guy back in office who has done what it takes to keep us from being attacked again.

Also the same guy who vetoed Homeland Security, correct?

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by Puffy

Well, I'll tell you what - you're in college right now, and I believe you will be graduating while Bush is in office. Once you get out and try to find a job let me know then if you're still glad.

I started school while Clinton was in office and the jobs within 6 months out of Tulane was 96%. I graduated when Bush was in office and the jobs out of my class were 80%. This past year they were 75%.

I know a lot of people disagree with me that Bush and the conservative policies affected my job market, but I talked to employers and I talked to firms who were not even hiring but rather downsizing and from what they told me it mattered.

There are people in my office who were getting 10%-20% raises before Bush and know my firm is around 5% - yet we have more clients then ever.

I'm just sayin, people can disagree and people can be happy, but this is what i've seen and I, for one, am not happy about My Country's direction.

Any economist worth his or her salt will tell you that Bush's policies have been a nightmare not only for the manual laborers and manufacturing workers, but also very much for skilled laborers, educated workers. The net job loss is the biggest indicator, but other elements (hiring practices, a whole host of other metrics) are contributing. People simply don't realize how badly the economy is going and how many people in the end his policies are going to effect.

But what I fear most is that the needle will be so buried after the next four years, that any Democratic philosophies brought forth by the Democratic candidate will be simply untenable. The Republicans are going to get their "unfixable system" that arranges the classes more distinctly than they've ever been in this country's history.