Strike out = to any other out?

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by M2

Great stuff Steel, but it's kind of like being forced to defend walking upright. You're 100% right and yet you have no hope of winning the argument.

Actually, untrue, kind sir.

I had a win in-hand the moment I entered into the discussion.

And y'know, for all you subscribers out there it's getting to be about that time.

Heh.

[M2]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

Actually, untrue, kind sir.

I had a win in-hand the moment I entered into the discussion.

I meant more in the sense that Marvis Frazier might not have recognized that Mike Tyson knocked him out.

[wheels]

Boom!

[BadFundamentals]

I sort of expected a "Mike Schmidt" or someone similar comment soon.

I think this is more of a "conceptual" argument. I could toss out a list of the most versatile and fundamentally sound hitters of the last 30+ years and all of them would have in common that they don't strikeout TOO TOO much. (in some cases very few strikeouts)

guys like Boggs, Pujols, Carew, Puckett, Casey (throw a Red in there), Brett, Rose (another), Bonds, ....etc.. etc.......

and again, as a matter of principle, (see Newton) you can't have strikeouts GOOD for a pitcher but not BAD for a hitter.

Originally Posted by M2

Great stuff Steel, but it's kind of like being forced to defend walking upright. You're 100% right and yet you have no hope of winning the argument.

FWIW, Mike Schmidt led the league in Ks four times, finished in the top three in the NL in Ks nine times, led his team in Ks nine times. Tony Perez, famed for his consistency in RBI situations, led the BRM in strikeouts almost every season (except when Johnny Bench nudged him in 1975 and 1976) and finished in the league top 10 in Ks 1969-1975, 77-78, 80. He drove in 1,017 runs in those 10 seasons.

[NJReds]

Originally Posted by BadFundamentals

Of course.

You and I may never agree about what the numbers tell us but I bet we do agree that baseball is something of a "numbers" game.

What do Marty and Joe talk about "if you have a bat you're dangerous" ?? Well, unless you don't hit ANYTHING with the bat.

You give yourself no "chance" of reaching base (other than BB) if you don't hit anything. Situationally and in late innings (things that don't show up when you view the SEASON on a whole with just cumulative numbers) - the moments that separate winning TEAMS from losing teams - is when offensive strikeouts kill you the most.

You know Rose...after having this same argument for you over the last half of the baseball season on the mlb.boards , I'll just sit this one out.

It is amusing to watch though...and at least on this board they have this :dflynn: :dflynn: :dflynn: ...which is pretty much how I felt all Summer.

[MWM]

Hey BAF, these close and late situations you talk about, you know, the argument you're using to hate on Dunn. Just for your information, in case you were concerned, Dunn had the following stats in 106 PAs in 2004:

BA - .323
OBP - .417
SLG - .720
OPS - 1.137
K - 34
BB - 13
H - 30
2B - 4
RBI - 22

So whay you're telling me is that you actually think Adam Dunn is a GREAT hitter in close and late situations.

[BadFundamentals]

ha ha....

after football games all the players and coaches talk about "big plays", making or not making the "big plays"

The baseball equivalent is making the most of "situations".... Lou Pinella constantly talks of getting the big hits etc... etc.....

Fundamentally Sound hitters are most capable of big situational at bats. Fundamentally Sound hitters don't strikeout too too much.

Originally Posted by NJReds

You know Rose...after having this same argument for you over the last half of the baseball season on the mlb.boards , I'll just sit this one out.

It is amusing to watch though...and at least on this board they have this :dflynn: :dflynn: :dflynn: ...which is pretty much how I felt all Summer.

[BadFundamentals]

right........... pick his career year and make a case based on 30 hits??

His lifetime avg. with RISP (important situations) is less than .210

Originally Posted by MWM

Hey BAF, these close and late situations you talk about, you know, the argument you're using to hate on Dunn. Just for your information, in case you were concerned, Dunn had the following stats in 106 PAs in 2004:

BA - .323
OBP - .417
SLG - .720
OPS - 1.137
K - 34
BB - 13
H - 30
2B - 4
RBI - 22

So whay you're telling me is that you actually think Adam Dunn is a GREAT hitter in close and late situations.

[MWM]

How do you account for the fact that the Red Sox struck out the 3rd most in the majors, let scored more runs than anyone else?

Also, how do you account for the fact that there is ZERO correlation in a team's strike outs to the number of runs they score?

[BadFundamentals]

see "payroll"

Originally Posted by MWM

How do you account for the fact that the Red Sox struck out the 3rd most in the majors, let scored more runs than anyone else?

Also, how do you account for the fact that there is ZERO correlation in a team's strike outs to the number of runs they score?

[wheels]

He can't. The only statistic he has is his .210 average over his career.

Blechhh.

[SteelSD]

I think this is more of a "conceptual" argument.

And I think this is more of a "you being wrong" argument.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by BadFundamentals

His lifetime avg. with RISP (important situations) is less than .210

I thought it only mattered late in close games? Are you saying that these things matter the entire game?

And I was basing it on 106 plate appearances. Trying to wittle that down to 30 hits is a nice attempt at drawing attention away from the fact that you make no sense.

[wheels]

payroll?

Hah!

[BadFundamentals]

It would be nice to not have to bat your SS or Jason LaRue etc.. etc...instead..... just bat 9 left fielders in a row - you'd win alot of games.

On a shoestring budget, you're unlikely to ever have the top to bottom talent of a Bosox or Yankees.