Reds trade Dustin Moseley for Ramon Ortiz

[Matt700wlw]

Originally Posted by wheels

Okay so besides losing Moseley, they've in effect signed two free agent pitchers worth nearly or more than seven million...And Matt Clement wanted eight million?

Hmmmmm....

Their thinking is probably....2 arms instead of one

[wheels]

Originally Posted by Matt700wlw

Their thinking is probably....2 arms instead of one

Once again...Hmmmmmm....

[Redmachine2003]

Now if the Reds do sign Merker and Weathers Wednesday is team a better team than last year?

[RedRoser]

Unless of course there's less interest on two 3.5-4.0 million dollar loans than there is on one 7.0-8.0 million dollar loan?

[M2]

Originally Posted by traderumor

they signed Byrd

I read that too.

That gives them Colon, Escobar, Bryd, Lackey and Washburn (about whom it's rumored they won't offer arbitration). Going into this offseason it was thought the Angels would punt Ortiz and Washburn, looking for upgrades. They have with Ortiz (at least they think they have), we'll see about Washburn.

[RedRoser]

Originally Posted by Redmachine2003

Now if the Reds do sign Merker and Weathers Wednesday is team a better team than last year?

Well, does bear poop in the woods stink any more today than it did yesterday? Only the passage of time (or a whiff of something) will tell my friend, but if I had to venture a guess, I'd say this year's team will be a better team, but only marginally unless DanO works a little harder.

---'Roser

[Phhhl]

This is a good deal. So he has had some problems the last couple years... he has better "stuff" than anybody on our major league roster with the exception of Hudson. Yes, he may have signed for a lot less money if he had been allowed to walk by Annaheim, but not here. He'd have been rotting in the Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers bullpen instead, and everyone on the planet would be chatting up how brilliant those organizations were to have such quality depth. Instead, he can possibly make a difference on THIS club.

Ortiz has had very solid seasons in his career, and 31 is right in the zone of a player's most productive campaigns. National Leaguers have seen very little of him, he is a former world champion (on a team where he carried a heavy load) and we didn't have to give up an arm and a leg to get this done.

Now, if DanO uses this an excuse not to non-tender Jiminez, or decides not to tender Ortiz after trying to work out a new deal, this certainly would be assinine. But there is absolutely no reason why this club can't afford to do ALL of those things... AND add another starter before opening day. None whatsoever.

Lance said it today. The Reds drew the same number of fans per game as the 1976 and 1990 World Champs, so ownership has nothing to complain about. But, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this deal on it's own merits.

[Cedric]

Ramon Ortiz is a headcase who wasn't gonna be offered arbitration. In my view that isn't worth your highest level pitching prospect.

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by wheels

Okay so besides losing Moseley, they've in effect signed two free agent pitchers worth nearly or more than seven million...And Matt Clement wanted eight million?

Hmmmmm....

Good point. However, Ortiz had no say in the matter when they traded him here. A guy like Clement could have signed with anyone. Even if the Reds had offered Clement $8M some other team could have offered $8.5 so there's no guarantee he would sign here. And there's the contract situation to take into account. You only have to pay Ortiz for another season and if he does well, he can be flipped for prospects in July. If not, they can non-tender him. With a Clement, you're paying him for 3-4 years. That's probably how the Reds are looking at it. Believe me, I'd have much rather used Wilson's and Ortiz' money on a Clement.

[WVRedsFan]

I don't know whether Ortiz will be what this team needs or not, but just from watching him over the last three years, he seemed to know how to pitch. He got hit sometimes, but he mixed his pitches up well.

Fact is, it was the kind of deal that mid to low division teams make. Either they trade a star for prospects or a prospect for someone who hasn't made it yet, but everyone says he will. Same old stuff.

[Aronchis]

He "might"(Nelson could have had a say in it if healthy) have been the highest level, but Dustin was not a top prospect. Guys like Gardner,Votto and Pauly have stuff to be "top" prospects. Moseley was a middling prospect with a low ceiling. To bad DanO couldn't do better than Ortiz, but maybe that is the best the man can do.

[CougarQuest]

I like this trade. Right now, I'd say Ortiz is the best starting pitcher on the Reds staff.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by Aronchis

He "might"(Nelson could have had a say in it if healthy) have been the highest level, but Dustin was not a top prospect. Guys like Gardner,Votto and Pauly have stuff to be "top" prospects. Moseley was a middling prospect with a low ceiling. To bad DanO couldn't do better than Ortiz, but maybe that is the best the man can do.

I agree, it's not all that important to get too weepy about Moseley--but the return still stinks.

[buckeyenut]

For this team, with this offense, Ortiz could be a perfectly reasonable #3 pitcher the way he pitched last year. The way he pitched 3 years ago, he could be our #1.

Where does Ortiz fit compared to the available FAs on the market? Probably right below the class of Perez and Clement (appx 7m for 3 yr) and above the rest of the guys like around. If 7M is too much for our club and budget, then I like Ortiz as a fall back. I would like Ortiz even better if he was the #3 with Wilson #2 and Clement/Perez fronting the rotation, but that is probably wishful thinking.

If Ortiz pitches like he did last year, we ought to be able to turn around and trade Ortiz at the deadline for a B prospect similar to Moseley. If he resumes 2002 form, we might be able to get better prospects. Or he might just keep us in the race.

Dustin Moseley's best case ceiling is probably about what Ortiz did last year so losing him is not a major deal. Says more about the depth of the Reds system that he is high on charts than it does about him as a prospect.

This is a deal that makes us more competitive in 2005, maybe beyond, than we would have been otherwise. Until the other shoe drops, if it does, I don't understand how anyone can be that opposed to the move.

Of course, if Jiminez is nontendered because of this deal, I 180 my opinion.

[westofyou]

In the 2004 BP they noted that BA termed Mosley a Rick Reed, Bob Tewksberry type of pitcher, low 90's, decent curve. A performer who usually finds his stuff in his 30's.

Personally I like it, he's a better short term bet than Mosley (who's one great talent has been health in a system fraught with unhealthy pitchers.)