Sully to Chi Sox with $$$ For PTBNL

[westofyou]

But Sully had his worst year in 98 ... a 5.21 ERA.. I remember a lot of people on the fastball board wanting to run him out of town,

2002 was his worst year.

SCOTT SULLIVAN

2002

YEAR TEAM         AGE W   L   PCT   G    GS  CG  SV  GF  IP     H    R    ER   BB   SO    ERA  RSAA
2002 Reds         31   6   5  .545   71   0   0   1  16   78.2   93   60   53   31   78   6.06  -14 
     TOTALS            6   5  .545   71   0   0   1  16   78.2   93   60   53   31   78   6.06  -14 
     LG AVERAGE        4   4  .501            0   4       78.2   77   39   36   30   59   4.11    0 

YEAR TEAM          HR  H/9   BR/9  SO/9  BB/9  SO/BB SHO WP  IBB HBP BFP   BK  NW  NL
2002 Reds          15 10.64 14.76  8.92  3.55  2.52   0   2  11   5   357  0   4   7 
     TOTALS        15 10.64 14.76  8.92  3.55  2.52   0   2  11   5   357  0   4   7 
     LG AVERAGE     9  8.83 12.67  6.77  3.49  1.94   0   2   3   3   339  0

[Phhhl]

Of all the clowns who call into talks shows in this city, and Peter Gammons who seems to have lost his biggest "informer" when Jim Bowden was fired as GM of this club and threw a rod, I am most surprised by the allergic reaction that the poetically lucid Redstorm has had to the moves the Reds have made in the latter half of this season.

This club has lost a third baseman and a pitcher who proved incapable of nailing down a role worthy of his immense talent in four years of tenure with this club, and one who continues to struggle even after the move. Scott Sullivan falls third in line of the casualties behind these two flawed performers, and yet I can see two or three pitchers who can replace him.

I am shocked at the pessimism of Redstorm in lieu of current events, because I have always considered him to be a paragon of intellectual strength against the irrationality of the emotional fan. AND I AM A EMOTIONAL FAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To date, we have lost noone that signifigantly diminishes our chances to win in the short nor the long term. As long as the Reds outfield remains intact and thrid basemen like Bill Mueller are valued as upper tier players in the game, this club has lost absolutely nothing on the field in it's pursuit of a younger, cheaper and much more talented ballclub. Unfortunate injuries have contributed greatly to the ugly complexion of this team as it stands today, but the addition of 7 to 8 eager and near major league ready arms going to 2004 more than make up for the loss of Aaron Boone at third base and several overpaid hurlers.

The front office HAS to do something in the off season to fill third base and strengthen the bench. But, if it does nothing to add pitching depth to the Reds, it still is about 100% better off than it would have been sitting on it's hands for the duration of this season.

I thought the more intelligent of our crew was prepared to make sacrafices to see our beloved Reds step forward. Nobody said it would be painless. I am frankly disappointed in those that have let their emotional attachment to players fog their vision of the future. No player is bigger than the concept of what it means to be a Cincinnati Red, and no contract should be designed to eclipse the importance of that player to the greater good. As sentimental as we would all like to be about it, winning is a mathmatical equation today more than ever before.

People can gripe about our bounty in these deals all they want, but after visiting the wasteland that is Dayton I personally see where Kullman and company are coming from.

[RFS62]

Originally posted by Santo Alcala
I am most surprised by the allergic reaction that the poetically lucid Redstorm has had to the moves the Reds have made in the latter half of this season.

I thought the more intelligent of our crew was prepared to make sacrafices to see our beloved Reds step forward. Nobody said it would be painless. I am frankly disappointed in those that have let their emotional attachment to players fog their vision of the future.

Santo, I wouldn't presume to speak for Red Storm. But from what I've read since the purge began, his biggest complaint isn't that the Reds are re-tooling. I think he's questioning the return on the trades we've made.

I think it's a valid observation. I don't always agree with Stormy's take on every situation. But he always makes me dig deeper, especially when we take opposing viewpoints.

Personally, I'm leaning towards your point of view. Nobody will know the final tally on these trades for many months. At least he has the balls to put his opinion out there before we have a post-purge track record to judge.

[Stormy]

Thanks Santo. I have no emotional attachment to any of the players we have traded, with the sole exception of Scott Williamson. I simply am disturbed by the method, means and motivation of the moves made by our F.O. There is no plan currently in place, and frankly, I'm betting Lee and Brad Kullman would likely admit as much in a more candid moment. Perhaps we will afford the new Reds GM (assuming there is a legitimate replacement named) some payroll flexibility, but we've already removed all of his trading commodities. He'll have nothing but albatross contracts and an unexceptional farm with which to make any moves towards improvement. Anyone relying upon the FA market is apparently new to following Reds baseball.

I have been in favor of moving everyone who has been moved by the Reds, even Willy, and WAY before most were of that opinion, because I believed the Reds would be a 70-92 team this year if the F.O. didn't help them - which it never intended to. However, I believed it was a necessity to turn our few valuable trade commodities into a great infusion of MLB ready talent, even if we had to pay a little extra to do it. Instead we disregarded the best talent infusion in favor of merely unloading players to the team which would take contracts off our hands. I'm not impressed by a slew of A ball pitchers (several whom I've now seen) who are behind the learning curve age wise, a minor league closer already with his 4th-5th organization and struggling mightily at AAA, an enormous injury risk, high ceiling unknown, and several tweeners as the sum haul for the MLB proven talent we traded. God bless those who are pleased with the return. I'm just not one of them. I like some of the new guys potential to contribute - Claussen and Valentine in particular, but that's not an equitable return for the MLB talent we dumped. Barring a new visionary GM, given free reign in player drafting and development, and a miracle of an offseason... this team is headed to the bargain basement cellar for years to come.

PS: I think Williamson has been awesome since the trade. He has allowed a total of 1ER in his past 7 games. 7IP 4 Hits 7Ks. He actually has allowed 0ER in 9 of the 11 games he's pitched since the move. That's great when you are in a pennant race. In fact, he's only had 1 bad appearance skew his ERA. His WHIP, K totals are great since the move. And with 1 exception, has kept the BoSox in every game he's pitched in. I have a feeling the Red Sox may just make him their closer for the last month of the season, and he'll pay dividends when/if they do. meanwhile, we may see Dumatrait learn to modestly handle AA next year, if lucky... though I wouldn't count on it.

[J "Cooper"]

We've made these trades that were supposedly going to wreck our bullpen yet since the trades have occurred our bullpen has performed better than at any time this season. Some of that could be related to the change in managers, i suspect most of it has to do with bullpen pitchers being very replaceable. I'm very surprised by what some seem to think Scott Sullivan was/is worth. Whay do we need to keep him? What does he bring to the table? Is he replaceable? Is he worth next years salary?

I'm wondering what the folks who are against the trade--who or what kind of return do you think we should have got?

[Phhhl]

Originally posted by Red Storm
Thanks Santo. I have no emotional attachment to any of the players we have traded, with the sole exception of Scott Williamson. I simply am disturbed by the method, means and motivation of the moves made by our F.O. There is no plan currently in place, and frankly, I'm betting Lee and Brad Kullman would likely admit as much in a more candid moment. Perhaps we will afford the new Reds GM (assuming there is a legitimate replacement named) some payroll flexibility, but we've already removed all of his trading commodities. He'll have nothing but albatross contracts and an unexceptional farm with which to make any moves towards improvement. Anyone relying upon the FA market is apparently new to following Reds baseball.

I have been in favor of moving everyone who has been moved by the Reds, even Willy, and WAY before most were of that opinion, because I believed the Reds would be a 70-92 team this year if the F.O. didn't help them - which it never intended to. However, I believed it was a necessity to turn our few valuable trade commodities into a great infusion of MLB ready talent, even if we had to pay a little extra to do it. Instead we disregarded the best talent infusion in favor of merely unloading players to the team which would take contracts off our hands. I'm not impressed by a slew of A ball pitchers (several whom I've now seen) who are behind the learning curve age wise, a minor league closer already with his 4th-5th organization and struggling mightily at AAA, an enormous injury risk, high ceiling unknown, and several tweeners as the sum haul for the MLB proven talent we traded. God bless those who are. I'm just not one of them. I like some of the new guys potential to contribute - Claussen and Valentine in particular, but that's not an equitable return for the MLB talent we dumped. Barring a new visionary GM, given free reign in player drafting and development, and a miracle of an offseason... this team is headed to the bargain basement cellar for years to come.

PS: I think Williamson has been awesome since the trade. He has allowed a total of 1ER in his past 7 games. 7IP 4 Hits 7Ks. He actually has allowed 0ER in 9 of the 11 games he's pitched since the move. That's great when you are in a pennant race. In fact, he's only had 1 bad appearance skew his ERA. His WHIP, K totals are great since the move. And with 1 exception, has kept the BoSox in every game he's pitched in. I have a feeling the Red Sox may just make him their closer for the last month of the season, and he'll pay dividends when/if they do. meanwhile, we may see Dumatrait learn to modestly handle AA next year, if lucky... though I wouldn't count on it.

Wow! I guess I just disagree. There are several guys I would have moved before the guys we did, but I don't think it was possible. Speculation is that this organization will cut payroll going into 2004 by 40% or so, but I have to see it to believe it. Maybe I am naive, but there seems to be a presumption among the masses that there is no fight left in the dog.

I guess the winter will tell one way or the other. It's funny to actually look forward to an offseason with this much interest.

[Stormy]

Originally posted by Santo Alcala
but the addition of 7 to 8 eager and near major league ready arms going to 2004 more than make up for the loss of Aaron Boone at third base and several overpaid hurlers.

Who are these 7-8 near MLB ready guys Santo? Manning, still toiling at single A at age 24+? Pelland, a guy pitching in the GCL? Bruksch, again a guy at high A who should be more advanced given his time in the minors and age (23)? Dumatrait and his low K, erratic control at high A... though the brightest of the bunch? These are A ballers, not 7-8 MLB ready arms.

Only 3 of the guys are near MLB ready, and they vary from high ceiling injury/question mark to an emminently hittable back of the rotation guy who brought a 5.00ERA and 350 BAA with him from the AL, to a strictly BP guy whose inability to harness his otherwise electric stuff have already landed him with 4+ organizations.

I see a few bright spots acquired shrouded by many more guys who will likely never see a Reds' uniform.

[Bill]

Storm, i agree with you that the return they have received has been questionable which it would be bound to be when cash is prized over talent. However, I wanted to note that not all the Reds 3B prospects are mediocre as you suggested previously. I had some doubts about Encarnacion since he was more a tools guy, but, after stumbling in AA from the Reds being overly aggressive with him, he has produced outstandingly for a 20 year old. An .860 OPS from a 20 year old 3B in high A is excellent and he has continued that pace since returning to AA. Most impressively, he has increased his walk rate rather than just relying on his quick bat. As he fills out, he should add more HR to his gap power.

Combine the above with a strong arm and some speed, and the Reds might have something special (if they take it easy with him). I view Hummel merely as a stand in until EE is ready and then perhaps Hummel will move to 2B where his bat would a positive (since by that point Jiminez will be earning too much to stay in town). Of course, I would have liked to have seen more in return, but if Chicago had a waiver claim on him, the Reds had little leverage.

Oh, and in fairness to Bruksch, this is only his second year of pro ball although I agree he is likely not major league talent, but rather a successful college pitcher Beane quickly turned into payment for a major league player.

[Falls City Beer]

"What does he bring to the table? Is he replaceable? Is he worth next years salary?"

The question is not at all what Scott Sullivan will bring to the Reds or how much he is worth to us, but rather how much is he worth to the White Sox (or any other team). Scott Sullivan and cash would have gotten us a AA arm, there is no doubt in my mind. That's what we should have gotten. If he's going to be a third baseman, get one with a better OBP; this guy's is totally pedestrian--not awful, just pedestrian. Branyan's OB will totally eclipse this kid's.

For the record, I supported the Guillen and Boone and Mercker deals unequivocally; they were brilliant, brilliant deals; deals that Bowden would have never made. It's just that I'm objective enough to call a good deal a good deal and a bad one a bad one--instead of harping on perceived party lines. I have no problem flipping Sullivan--just get more next time (particularly if you're also flipping cash).

[westofyou]

Branyan's OB will totally eclipse this kid's.

I'll take that bet, Branyan doesn't get the bat on the ball enough (or walk) to do that IMO.

Branyan had a .349 OB% in 2100 ML ab's and a .320 in 1003 MLB AB's. In the ML he K'd every 2.55 AB in MLB it's every 2.44 (Dunn every 3.1)

Hummel has roughly (since I don't know his HBP or SF) a .358 OB% in 1700 ML ab's.

The only league that Branyan ever had an OB% above .360 was A ball.

Plus next year he'll be 28, not exactly the age that ones game changes.

However Branyan has more power by a mile, but OB skills, no.

[Phhhl]

Originally posted by Red Storm
Who are these 7-8 near MLB ready guys Santo? Manning, still toiling at single A at age 24+? Pelland, a guy pitching in the GCL? Bruksch, again a guy at high A who should be more advanced given his time in the minors and age (23)? Dumatrait and his low K, erratic control at high A... though the brightest of the bunch? These are A ballers, not 7-8 MLB ready arms.

Only 3 of the guys are near MLB ready, and they vary from high ceiling injury/question mark to an emminently hittable back of the rotation guy who brought a 5.00ERA and 350 BAA with him from the AL, to a strictly BP guy whose inability to harness his otherwise electric stuff have already landed him with 4+ organizations.

I see a few bright spots acquired shrouded by many more guys who will likely never see a Reds' uniform.

7-8 was a gross overestimation. But, I maintain the club is doing the right thing at this point. The staff is going to perform much, much better in 2004 with the infusion of some of these guys. I believe that. And the complexion of the lineup will not be signifigantly worse without Aaron.

[pedro]

Originally posted by Krusty
Larson has shown that he is the second coming of Dave Revering

Sad as it may be, Larson will be lucky if he ever puts up dave revering's numbers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/alltim...playerId=11521

[CougarQuest]

According to the Enquirer, Hummel will join the Reds on Tuesday.

They probably will get Tim Hummel, a 24-year-old third baseman, on Tuesday from the White Sox as the player to be announced in the Scott Sullivan trade.

[Benihana]

Originally posted by Red Storm
Who are these 7-8 near MLB ready guys Santo? Manning, still toiling at single A at age 24+? Pelland, a guy pitching in the GCL? Bruksch, again a guy at high A who should be more advanced given his time in the minors and age (23)? Dumatrait and his low K, erratic control at high A... though the brightest of the bunch? These are A ballers, not 7-8 MLB ready arms.

Only 3 of the guys are near MLB ready, and they vary from high ceiling injury/question mark to an emminently hittable back of the rotation guy who brought a 5.00ERA and 350 BAA with him from the AL, to a strictly BP guy whose inability to harness his otherwise electric stuff have already landed him with 4+ organizations.

I see a few bright spots acquired shrouded by many more guys who will likely never see a Reds' uniform.

Sorry Redstorm but completely disagree. 7-8 is an exaggeration, but depending on how you look at it 4-6 clearly is not. Brandon Claussen, Joe Valentine, Aaron Harang, and Matt Belisle are all ML ready right now (by that, I mean for the start of the 2004 season). Not a single one of those pitchers has ANYTHING left to prove at the minor league level. They have all dominated at AAA, something that not a single other Reds pitcher has done in the last five years. If you add to that mix Jose Acevedo, Dustin Moseley and Josh Hall (the latter two may not start Opening Day on the ML roster but are surely not that far behind), and the Reds have more quality young ML-READY pitching prospects than they maybe have at least in the last twenty years. That coupled with the fact that our High-A Potomac roster has been infused with talent with the additions of Dumatrait, Manning, and Brukusch, and I feel we did very well for ourselves with the deadline deals. The only questionable one may have been Williamson, but I'll take 2/3 any day- and the Willy deal was certainly by no means a fleecing, so I'm fine with that.

Just compare our current situation to what it was this time last year, where the only hopes we had with regards to our pitching prospects was a faint hope that someday Dustin Moseley might pan out- while he was toiling away at AA. Well Moseley has thrived this year, and with the re-emergence of Josh Hall as well as these 4-6 acquisitions, we are not in a position to complain about our organizational pitching depth, especially not when compared to what it was less than six months ago.

[Benihana]

Oh, and I forgot to add Ryan Wagner to that mix of quality young ML-ready arms.