Congrats to the NFL...

[macro]

Originally Posted by ws1990reds

Macro, my comment was in reference to the Eagles standing around as if their watches said it was only the beginning of that particular quarter

Ahh, got ya. Sorry, I was a bit slow there.

(For those wondering, I PM'd ws1990 to ask what watches had to do with the Eagles.)

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by Mutaman

Oops . Do I have to?

You must. He met your criteria.

[NJReds]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

The best Brady comp you're going to get at this point is Troy Aikman. That's not bad company at all and certainly not any sort of "bashing" of the guy. Anything more is pure hyperbole.

I think Brady's a little tougher then Aikman...and I'm a Cowboys fan. Although Troy took a lot of hits his first couple years because the 'boys were awful. Brady walked into a much better situation.

It always used to annoy me that Troy let things like bad weather really affect his game. Emmitt pulled his fat out of the fire on more then a few occasions.

Brady seems to fit right into the NE system...plays well in the elements, is very accurate and doesn't get flustered. He doesn't put up the numbers that some of the other QBs you named did -- but a lot of them had Hall of Fame running backs and wide receivers.

Brady has no All-Pros around him on offense (except for Vinitieri). Until this year he didn't have a better then average RB (A. Smith, K. Faulk). Compare that to Bradshaw, Montana, Young, Favre, Manning, Aikman and Elway -- not saying Brady's better, but all of those guys had much better supporting casts on offense.

[Puffy]

I just can't fathom how people will still argue that Tom Brady isn't a great quarterback or that anyone could win with the Pats. And the Trent Dilfer comparsion - thats like comparing Adam Dunn to Dave Kingman.

I watch a ton of football (I am blessed with no life) and I've watched most of the Pats games over this run. And every playoff victory of Brady. Every single time the Pats seemed poised to lose Tom Brady moved the team down the field and produced points.

Exhibit A - 2002 Super Bowl. Rams tie the score with less than 2 minutes left. Brady marches team downfield and sets up Vinitieri for the winning field goal.

Exhibit B - 2004 Super Bowl. Carolina ties the score with less than 2 and a half minutes left. Brady marches team down the field and sets up Vinitieri for the game winning field goal.

Exhibit C - Eagles take 7-0 lead. Brady marches team right down field until fumbled exchange gives Eagles ball back. Brady gets ball back and once again marches team down field and this time scores game tying touchdown, never letting Philly get too much mo.

Every single time the Pats fell behind or began to lose momentum Brady lead his team down the field and produced points. Thats the mark of a great quarterback.

As for the who is more valuable, well, Belicheck is the best coach in the game and the best I have seen in a long, long time (Hi Mr. Parcells circa eighties and early nineties before he abandoned me and My Giants) and I don't think another coach would have won 3 SB's in 4 years with this group of players. 1 Super Bowl sure, 2 maybe, but not three.

[Danny Serafini]

Originally Posted by Puffy

I just can't fathom how people will still argue that Tom Brady isn't a great quarterback or that anyone could win with the Pats. And the Trent Dilfer comparsion - thats like comparing Adam Dunn to Dave Kingman.

Throwing out the pre-Ravens part of Dilfer's career (which I bet he'd like to do) the two play a similar game. Neither one was asked to carry the team and win the game, simply not to lose it. Brady is very good at not making mistakes, and there is value in that, especially in the right system. Dilfer played the same game the year the Ravens won it. Doesn't make either great, merely efficient.

Exhibit A - 2002 Super Bowl. Rams tie the score with less than 2 minutes left. Brady marches team downfield and sets up Vinitieri for the winning field goal.

The Rams went into a prevent softer than a baby's butt. Any coach that goes into a prevent defense should be shot, it's been shown time and again it doesn't work.

Exhibit B - 2004 Super Bowl. Carolina ties the score with less than 2 and a half minutes left. Brady marches team down the field and sets up Vinitieri for the game winning field goal.

Wasn't much of a march. Kasay kicked off out of bounds and the Pats got handed the ball at their own 40.

Exhibit C - Eagles take 7-0 lead. Brady marches team right down field until fumbled exchange gives Eagles ball back.

In other words he turned the ball over. Not really the kind of thing that makes your case.

Tom Brady is what he is, an average QB in the right system. I'm not faulting him for taking advantage of it, but let's be realisitc. Putting him in the same sentence as Montana or Unitas or whomever is a pretty big insult to those guys.

[SteelSD]

I can find a lot more if you want, but when someone like Ron Jaworski calls Brady the best big game player hes ever seen , what more needs be said.

That Ron Jaworski's job is to create buzz and hype?

And that he doesn't remember who Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, John Elway, or Brett Favre are.

[MWM]

Puffy, I've watched plenty of footbal in my day too and I've come to a completely different conclusion than you on Tom Brady. He's good and he works well in the system he's in with the surrounding cast he has, but I think there are plenty of QBs who would be just as successful playing in the environment he's playing in. By watching his game, I don't know that he could be that successful in a setting where he's got an average suporting cast.

[SteelSD]

I watch a ton of football (I am blessed with no life) and I've watched most of the Pats games over this run. And every playoff victory of Brady.

Including the one where he fumbled the game away only to have the refs screw it up? And the one that Bledsoe won for him?

[Johnny Footstool]

Including the one where he fumbled the game away only to have the refs screw it up? And the one that Bledsoe won for him?

Hero-worship allows us to gloss over such embarassments and focus on the successes.

But how many points did the Pat's defense put on the board in yesterday's Super Bowl?

True, but how many turnovers did the Pats' defense come up with?

How well did the Pats' defense shut down the Eagles running game?

The Pats were 4-12 on 3rd down on Sunday. Did Brady forget how to be great 8 times out of 12?

I'm all for giving credit where credit is due. But why credit one player for the success of an entire team? Why elevate one player to hero status while ignoring all the other factors that go into a championship team?

[Puffy]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

Including the one where he fumbled the game away only to have the refs screw it up? And the one that Bledsoe won for him?

Um yeah.

I also watched Joe Montana lose to the NY Giants 49-3 in a playoff game. I watched Brett Favre throw 4 interceptions in a playoff game just last month, I watched John Elway lose three Super Bowls and play like crap in two of them.

So what was your point of taking that one line out of my post? That Brady was lucky to win two of those games? Never said he was perfect did I?

Once again the point is this - great quaterbacks produce points when they have to. Favre has, does and always will. Elway did too. Bart Starr (before my time) did, or so I'm told. Bradshaw did. Staubach did. Marino did (in the regular season at least - but with his lack of a great defense and lack of a dominent ruuner, ever, thats why he has no SB's). Montana did. Is Brady better than these guys? No. Is he better than ANY of these guys? As of now, I'd say no. But that doesn't mean he isn't a great quarterback now does it? The guy, regular season or playoffs, always produces points when his team needs it. The Pats scored 56, 50 freaking 6, points in the last two minutes of the first half this season. Great quarterbacks work the two minute drill - Brady does this. Great quarterbacks rise up in the spotlight. Brady does this. Great quarterbacks will their teams to wins in pressure situations. Brady has consistently done this. To say he is average or is just a product of the situation is ridiculous to me.

Is he the best QB in football right now - I don't know. Personally I would take P. Manning first, and I'm still a Brett Favre guy second. But thats not really the argument is it? More than one great QB is allowed per generation correct - I mean Elway, Montana and Marino all competer at the same time (and the best of them all, Phil Simms!!). But to say he's not great, I just don't understand what you people want - he is a leader, he comes up big in the big games, he doesn't make stupid mistakes or force balls, he has a strong arm, he can make every throw on the field, he has average recievers yet still puts up numbers, and he doesn't lose.

[westofyou]

Tom Brady.. "The Michigan Pinata" Everyone keeps beating on him and candy just keeps falling out of his butt.

[Puffy]

Oh, and I'm not trying to force my opinion on anyone - I believe what I believe. I'm just hoping to show that just because he doesn't put up the huge numbers doesn't mean he's not great. Just as the fact that a quarterback wins a Super Bowl doesn't make him great either.

But I think Brady's body of work speaks volumes, thats all.

[SteelSD]

So what was your point of taking that one line out of my post? That Brady was lucky to win two of those games? Never said he was perfect did I?

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you were at all missing those.

But Brady didn't win those game. That's the point. Everyone keeps saying "Brady has WON" all these games and hasn't lost any of them in the playoffs.

And I'm not saying that you think this, Puffy- but you listen to some folks and you'd believe that Tom Brady has three Lombardi Trophies sitting on the mantle at his home all due to his personal achievement.

Read what you just typed- "He doesn't lose". "Watched John Elway lose..."

QB's will always get more credit than is due and more blame than they should take, including the attribution of wins and losses as personal achievement in the most complex sport in the world. Silly, IMHO.

BTW, if Troy Brown and Deion Branch are "average" receivers, I'll eat my hat. Underrated, yes. But the best offensive player on that team is Deion Branch. Troy Brown was more important to the New England Patriots this year than was Tom Brady.

BTW, I've never said that Tom Brady was "average" either. In fact, I've already stated that I'd comp him with Aikman right now. But I have no doubt that we're watching at least 4 or five QB's at this moment in the NFL who'll put together more productive careers than Tom Brady.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool

I'm all for giving credit where credit is due. But why credit one player for the success of an entire team? Why elevate one player to hero status while ignoring all the other factors that go into a championship team?

thank you!

[Puffy]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you were at all missing those.

But Brady didn't win those game. That's the point. Everyone keeps saying "Brady has WON" all these games and hasn't lost any of them in the playoffs.

And I'm not saying that you think this, Puffy- but you listen to some folks and you'd believe that Tom Brady has three Lombardi Trophies sitting on the mantle at his home all due to his personal achievement.

Read what you just typed- "He doesn't lose". "Watched John Elway lose..."

QB's will always get more credit than is due and more blame than they should take, including the attribution of wins and losses as personal achievement in the most complex sport in the world. Silly, IMHO.

BTW, if Troy Brown and Deion Branch are "average" receivers, I'll eat my hat. Underrated, yes. But the best offensive player on that team is Deion Branch. Troy Brown was more important to the New England Patriots this year than was Tom Brady.

BTW, I've never said that Tom Brady was "average" either. In fact, I've already stated that I'd comp him with Aikman right now. But I have no doubt that we're watching at least 4 or five QB's at this moment in the NFL who'll put together more productive careers than Tom Brady.

Yeah, I don't think Branch is average either - nor Givens. But alot of others do.

And the words I chose (Elway and he doesn't lose) were more in response to your one line, so I apologize for that.

Onto the main point - I agree, football is a team game and one player never wins on his own. Sure people can dominate for stretches, LT being the greatest example of this ever I think, but LT couldn't play offense, so even when he did dominate the offense still had a job to do.

And the reason the Pats have won 3 SB's in four years is way more than Brady - I'm still going with Belicheck as reason #1, in my book at least.

But what I do take offense to, and again, its only my opinion, is the thinking that half the QB's in the league would have the record of 48-16, plus 9-0 in the playoffs, as QB of the Pats over these past 4 years. And once again, my main point is that everytime the Pats look like they are in trouble Brady steps up and gets them points. This is something Jon Kitna couldn't consistently do. Kerry Collins never could do it consistently. Mike Vick can't do it consistently yet. McNabb can't do it on a consistent basis. Dilfer definitely couldn't do it. Carson Palmer can't do it yet. And to me that is the mark of a great QB and where I get the words "refuses to lose" - of course other factors play into those words, because, as we've said, football is a team game and even if a QB drives his team into position the FG kicker still has to make the kick (Hi Scott Norwide), but in my opinion, Brady always puts his team in a position to win, does it himself sometimes, and is a great QB.