10 Killed in Minnesota School Shooting...

[CbusRed]

Horrible....


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...chool_shooting

10 Dead in Minn. Teen Rampage, Police Say

28 minutes ago
U.S. National - AP

By JOSHUA FREED, Associated Press Writer

BEMIDJI, Minn. - A high school student went on a shooting rampage on an Indian reservation Monday, killing his grandparents at their home and then seven people at his school, grinning and waving as he fired, authorities and witnesses said. The suspect apparently killed himself after exchanging gunfire with police.


AFP Slideshow: Eight Killed in Minn. High School Shooting


It was the nation's worst school shooting since the Columbine massacre in 1999 that killed 13 people.



One student said her classmates pleaded with the gunman to stop shooting.



"You could hear a girl saying, 'No, Jeff, quit, quit. Leave me alone. What are you doing?" student Sondra Hegstrom told The Pioneer of Bemidji, using the name of the suspected shooter.



Before the shootings at Red Lake High School, the suspect's grandparents were shot in their home and died later. There was no immediate indication of the gunman's motive.



In addition to the shooter, the death toll at the school included five students, a teacher and a security guard, FBI (news - web sites) spokesman Paul McCabe said in Minneapolis.



Fourteen to 15 other students were injured, McCabe said. Some were being cared for in Bemidji, about 20 miles south of Red Lake. Authorities closed roads to the reservation in far northern Minnesota while they investigated the shootings.



Hegstrom described the shooter grinning and waving at a student his gun was pointed at, then swiveling to shoot someone else. "I looked him in the eye and ran in the room, and that's when I hid," she told The Pioneer.



McCabe declined to talk about a possible connection between the suspect and the couple killed at the home, but Red Lake Fire Director Roman Stately said they were the grandparents of the gunman. He identified the shooter's grandfather as Daryl Lussier, a longtime officer with the Red Lake Police Department, and said Lussier's guns may have been used in the shootings.



Stately said the shooter had two handguns and a shotgun.



"After he shot a security guard, he walked down the hallway shooting and went into a classroom where he shot a teacher and more students," Stately told Minneapolis television station KARE.



Students and a teacher, Diane Schwanz, said the gunman tried to break down a door to get into her classroom.



"I just got on the floor and called the cops," Schwanz told the Pioneer. "I was still just half-believing it."



Ashley Morrison, another student, had taken refuge in Schwanz's classroom. With the shooter banging on the door, she dialed her mother on her cell phone. Her mother, Wendy Morrison, said she could hear gunshots on the line.



"'Mom, he's trying to get in here and I'm scared,'" Ashley Morrison told her mother.



All of the dead students were found in one room. One of them was a boy believed to be the shooter, McCabe said. He would not comment on reports that the boy shot himself and said it was too early to speculate on a motive.



Martha Thunder's 15-year-old son, Cody, was being treated for a gunshot wound to the hip.







"He heard gunshots and the teacher said 'No, that's the janitor's doing something,' and the next thing he knew, the kid walked in there and pointed the gun right at him," Thunder said.

The school was evacuated after the shootings and locked down for the investigation, McCabe said.

"It will probably take us throughout the night to really put the whole picture together," he said.

Floyd Jourdain Jr., chairman of the Red Lake Chippewa Tribe, called it "without a doubt the darkest hour" in the group's history. "There has been a considerable amount of lives lost, and we still don't know the total of that," Jourdain said.

It was the nation's worst school shooting since two students at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 23 before killing themselves on April 20, 1999.

The rampage in Red Lake was the second fatal school shooting in Minnesota in 18 months. Two students were killed at Rocori High School in Cold Spring in September 2003. Student John Jason McLaughlin, who was 15 at the time, awaits trial in the case.

Red Lake High School, on the Red Lake Indian Reservation, has about 300 students, according to its Web site. The reservation is about 240 miles north of the Twin Cities. It is home to the Red Lake Chippewa Tribe, one of the poorest in the state. According to the 2000 census, 5,162 people lived on the reservation, and all but 91 were Indians.

___

[RedFanAlways1966]

Unfortunate.

I think all schools need an armed guard and a metal detector. Instead of taxes paying for 15 guidance counselors (that few students use anyhow), 5 drug counselors (parents job... like guidance)... today's society calls for more school security.

Only takes one nutjob to take out 9 innocent lives. I'd rather have my tax money being used to protect kids than being spent on two-bit crap like too many guidance counselors (and other things that is the job of the parents).

I am sure my comments will raise some ire here. But a 15-year-old is plenty old enough to brandish a weapon and take lives. Even if the principal and vice-principal are allowed to carry guns... that is better than zero protection or an unarmed security guard.

Nothing good about any school shooting. But it would be "better" if more precautions were taken. Metal detector at minimum!!

[Red Heeler]

What a terrible tragedy. I cannot imagine what the parents of those students and the community as a whole are going through right now.

One more reason why gun licensing and ownership laws need to be made much much tougher.

[TeamCasey]

Originally Posted by Red Heeler

One more reason why gun licensing and ownership laws need to be made much much tougher.

Bingo. How many more kids need to die before people see that? Unfortunately, probably a lot more.

[Johnny Footstool]

Only takes one nutjob to take out 9 innocent lives. I'd rather have my tax money being used to protect kids than being spent on two-bit crap like too many guidance counselors (and other things that is the job of the parents).

I would think a combination of better security and more counseling would do more to prevent future problems than simply increasing security.

The kid had mental problems that should have been identified and treated. A decent counseling program in his school would probably have done more to prevent this tragedy than a fully-armed security staff.

[zombie-a-go-go]

Originally Posted by Red Heeler

One more reason why gun licensing and ownership laws need to be made much much tougher.

Negative, ghostrider.

The onus of this tragedy rests squarely on the shoulders of the parents who allowed their child to become a psychopath, and the relatives who owned firearms and failed to secure them. Tougher gun laws restrict the freedoms of those who do practice, fervently, proper firearm safety, and leaves them helpless against those who would not abide by such laws.

The guy who breaks into your house doesn't really care whether or not the government says you can have a firearm, but definitely cares about whether or not you have a gun in the house.

[Reds/Flyers Fan]

Interesting how these episodes always happen in rural or suburban settings. Columbine HS is in Littleton, a well-to-do Denver suburb. And Red Lake is just remote. These never happen in inner city Detroit or Cincinnati, places you'd expect.

[Johnny Footstool]

Tougher gun laws restrict the freedoms of those who do practice, fervently, proper firearm safety, and leaves them helpless against those who would not abide by such laws.

And for the other side of the argument...

Tougher gun laws usually involve a waiting period to purchase a weapon. Those who do practice firearm safety already own guns and probably don't need to own another weapon instantly. And I don't see how a waiting period leaves someone "helpless."

Also, IMO, those who are fervent practitioners of firearm safety would be likely to follow any new laws. The irresponsible few who object to restrictions would most likely be the ones who would leave their guns unsecured.

The purpose of gun control is not to take guns out of the hands of responsible users, but to prevent irresponsible users from purchasing guns.

That said, I don't think gun control laws would have prevented this situation. This kid had problems.

When I was in 7th grade, a 9th grader brought a rifle to school. He was looking for the jocks that had tormented him for years. He didn't find them, luckily -- they were in the lunchroom (I was in there, too) -- but he wounded two teachers and a student, and he killed the principal.

He was fully trained in gun safety and used his own licensed hunting rifle to do the shooting.

The kid had problems. Problems that gun control laws couldn't have fixed.

[Red Heeler]

Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go

Negative, ghostrider.

The onus of this tragedy rests squarely on the shoulders of the parents who allowed their child to become a psychopath, and the relatives who owned firearms and failed to secure them. Tougher gun laws restrict the freedoms of those who do practice, fervently, proper firearm safety, and leaves them helpless against those who would not abide by such laws.

The guy who breaks into your house doesn't really care whether or not the government says you can have a firearm, but definitely cares about whether or not you have a gun in the house.

I'm not at all sold on the efficacy of gun ownership on deterring crime.

However, I am not talking about restricting the ownership of guns. What I am talking about is getting tough on the irresponsible gun owners. I would like to see mandatory licensing for all guns. If you are caught with a gun for which you have no license, you go to jail for a long time. I would also like to see a requirement that all guns be kept in a locked, built in or otherwise immovable safe. If your gun is used in a crime, you go to jail for a long time.

[CbusRed]

Originally Posted by Reds/Flyers Fan

Interesting how these episodes always happen in rural or suburban settings. Columbine HS is in Littleton, a well-to-do Denver suburb. And Red Lake is just remote. These never happen in inner city Detroit or Cincinnati, places you'd expect.

It happens, seems like every week there is a story about a kid getting caught with a gun in school here in columbus.. just a week ago, a second grader has a 9mm in his bookbag, AT SCHOOL, was playing with it, it went off, and now he is missing a few fingers. The kids older brother is charged with criminal negligence.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by zombie-a-go-go

Negative, ghostrider.

The onus of this tragedy rests squarely on the shoulders of the parents who allowed their child to become a psychopath, and the relatives who owned firearms and failed to secure them. Tougher gun laws restrict the freedoms of those who do practice, fervently, proper firearm safety, and leaves them helpless against those who would not abide by such laws.

The guy who breaks into your house doesn't really care whether or not the government says you can have a firearm, but definitely cares about whether or not you have a gun in the house.

You never hear about this happening in London.

Just sayin.

[reds1869]

Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool

And for the other side of the argument...

Tougher gun laws usually involve a waiting period to purchase a weapon. Those who do practice firearm safety already own guns and probably don't need to own another weapon instantly. And I don't see how a waiting period leaves someone "helpless."

Also, IMO, those who are fervent practitioners of firearm safety would be likely to follow any new laws. The irresponsible few who object to restrictions would most likely be the ones who would leave their guns unsecured.

The purpose of gun control is not to take guns out of the hands of responsible users, but to prevent irresponsible users from purchasing guns.

That said, I don't think gun control laws would have prevented this situation. This kid had problems.

When I was in 7th grade, a 9th grader brought a rifle to school. He was looking for the jocks that had tormented him for years. He didn't find them, luckily -- they were in the lunchroom (I was in there, too) -- but he wounded two teachers and a student, and he killed the principal.

He was fully trained in gun safety and used his own licensed hunting rifle to do the shooting.

The kid had problems. Problems that gun control laws couldn't have fixed.

I remember that, and have often wondered when looking at your location.

I am a teacher who has taught in an urban setting and can tell you that the armed guards would do nothing but become the first one shot. And these things DO happen in urban schools--we had two students shot at our school last year. They just don't make the news as no one is shocked and frankly no one in the suburbs cares.

No amount of security will stop a determined person. A Deterent is only a deterent to those who care...and a nutjob could care less about their own life or that of another.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by Johnny Footstool

And for the other side of the argument...

Tougher gun laws usually involve a waiting period to purchase a weapon. Those who do practice firearm safety already own guns and probably don't need to own another weapon instantly. And I don't see how a waiting period leaves someone "helpless."

Also, IMO, those who are fervent practitioners of firearm safety would be likely to follow any new laws. The irresponsible few who object to restrictions would most likely be the ones who would leave their guns unsecured.

The purpose of gun control is not to take guns out of the hands of responsible users, but to prevent irresponsible users from purchasing guns.

That said, I don't think gun control laws would have prevented this situation. This kid had problems.

When I was in 7th grade, a 9th grader brought a rifle to school. He was looking for the jocks that had tormented him for years. He didn't find them, luckily -- they were in the lunchroom (I was in there, too) -- but he wounded two teachers and a student, and he killed the principal.

He was fully trained in gun safety and used his own licensed hunting rifle to do the shooting.

The kid had problems. Problems that gun control laws couldn't have fixed.

How do you determine which kid needs counseling? do all of them? do we counsel every kid? and if so, how?

Seems pretty simple to me. I have zero chance against a kid with a gun. I f he wants to kill me, and he's armed, I'm likely going to die.

Same kid without a gun. Say he brandishes a knife, or a bat, or a metal pipe. I've at least got a fighting chance.

It was an ammendment that made sense 220 years ago. Not so much now. Why is it this country is always the last or among the last to embrace social evolution. Slavery. Equal Rights. Equal rights for women. Guns.

I'm conservative on a lot of issues. Guns will never be one of them.

[zombie-a-go-go]

Originally Posted by TRF

You never hear about this happening in London.

Just sayin.

Cultural differences and more-permissive legal standards notwithstanding, the English rate of violent crime has been soaring since 1991. Over the same period, America’s has been falling dramatically. In 1999 The Boston Globe reported that the American murder rate, which had fluctuated by about 20 percent between 1974 and 1991, was "in startling free-fall." We have had nine consecutive years of sharply declining violent crime. As a result the English and American murder rates are converging. In 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and the latest study puts it at 3.5 times.

http://www.reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml

The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm

[CbusRed]

Interesting developments today.... Apparently there was a metal detector, but that didnt stop the kid. Also, it appears he asked kids if they believed in god before he shot them. That pretty much classifies this as a copy-cat crime... regardless, I hope all our thoughts and prayers are going out to this small Minnesota town....


http://www.nbc4i.com/news/4306270/detail.html

Witnesses: School Gunman Smiled, Waved During Massacre
10 Dead After Shooting Rampage

POSTED: 8:35 am EST March 22, 2005
UPDATED: 10:31 am EST March 22, 2005

REDBY, Minn. -- The suspect in the worst U.S. school massacre since Columbine smiled and waved as he gunned down five students, a teacher and a guard, asking one of his victims whether he believed in God, witnesses said. The teen's grandfather and his grandfather's wife also were found dead, and the boy killed himself.

Reggie Graves, a student at Red Lake High School, said he was watching a movie about Shakespeare in class Monday when he heard the gunman blast his way past the metal detector at the school's entrance, killing a guard.
AP Image

Then, in a nearby classroom, he heard the gunman say something to his friend Ryan: "He asked Ryan if he believed in God," Graves said. "And then he shot him."

Slideshow: At Least 10 Dead In High School Massacre
Video: Minnesota High School Shooting

The death toll at the Red Lake Indian Reservation in far northern Minnesota made it the nation's worst school shooting since the rampage at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., in April 1999 that left 12 students and a teacher, plus the two teen gunmen, dead.

The Minnesota victims included the gunman's grandfather; the grandfather's wife; a school security guard; a teacher; and five other students. At least 14 others were wounded, officials said.

"There's not a soul that will go untouched by the tragic loss that we've experienced here," Floyd Jourdain Jr., chairman of the Red Lake Chippewa Tribe, told WCCO-TV of Minneapolis on Tuesday.

Police said the gunman killed himself after exchanging fire with officers. Red Lake Fire Director Roman Stately said the gunman had two handguns and a shotgun.

"We ask Minnesotans to help comfort the families and friends of the victims who are suffering unimaginable pain by extending prayers and expressions of support," Gov. Tim Pawlenty said.

The shooter was Jeff Weise, a 17-year-old student who had been placed in the school's Homebound program for some violation of policy, said school board member Kathryn Beaulieu. Students in that program stay at home and are tutored by a traveling teacher. Beaulieu said she didn't know what Weise's violation was, and wouldn't be allowed to reveal it if she did.

Beaulieu said school was canceled Tuesday, but plans hadn't been made for the rest of the week.

During the rampage, teachers herded students from one room to another, trying to move away from the sound of the shooting, said Graves, 14. He said some students crouched under desks.

Some pleaded with the gunman to stop. "You could hear a girl saying, 'No, Jeff, quit, quit. Leave me alone. What are you doing?"' Sondra Hegstrom told The Pioneer of Bemidji.

Student Ashley Morrison said she heard shots, then saw the gunman's face peering though a door window of a classroom where she was hiding with several other students. After banging at the door, the shooter walked away and she heard more shots, she said.

"I can't even count how many gunshots you heard, there was over 20. ... There were people screaming, and they made us get behind the desk," she said.

FBI spokesman Paul McCabe said the gunman exchanged gunfire with Red Lake police in a hallway, then retreated to a classroom, where he was believed to have shot himself.

All of the dead students were found in one room, including the teen believed to be the shooter.

Relatives told the St. Paul Pioneer Press that Weise was a loner who usually wore black and was teased by other kids. Relatives told the newspaper his father committed suicide four years ago, and that his mother was living in a Minneapolis nursing home because she suffered brain injuries in a car accident.

Some of the injured were being cared for in Bemidji, about 20 miles south of Red Lake. Authorities closed roads to the reservation in far northern Minnesota while they investigated the shootings.

Police officers were posted at the hospital Monday night to keep reporters from entering. When a reporter approached three men walking across a hospital parking lot, one broke down in tears and the others said they had no comment.

It was the second fatal school shooting in Minnesota in 18 months. Two students were killed at Rocori High School in Cold Spring in September 2003. Student John Jason McLaughlin, who was 15 at the time, awaits trial in the case.

Red Lake High School has about 300 students, according to its Web site.

The reservation is about 240 miles north of the Twin Cities. It is home to the Red Lake Chippewa Tribe, one of the poorest in the state. According to the 2000 census, 5,162 people lived on the reservation, and all but 91 were Indians.