8/24 Game Thread - Reds vs. Nationals

[pedro]

Originally Posted by BrooklynRedz

Pena is no worse a fielder than Dunn. He just happens to be playing out of position. He's a center fielder.

How come everyone wants to hold Wily Mo up to GREAT standards while Kearns is struggling to reach Kevin Seitzer's career path? Pena is 22 and has shown marked improvement at every stage. However, due to some crazy man-love for Kearns, he's stuck riding the pine while a half-wit like Hal McCoy stares at Kearns and sees Stan Musial. But, I guess we'll all be happy moving Pena for a Bret Tomko-ish prospect and going into next season with Dunn in left, a slow sluggish Griffey in center and Kearns in right. Not sure how that outfield is any better than a Dunn-Pena-Griffey OF. Everyone keeps waiting and waiting and waiting for Kearns to show you half of what Wily Mo has put on display for the past two seasons. Is he perfect? No, but he's going to come a far cry closer to perfect or GREAT than will Kearns, high walk rate or no.

WMP will be 24 at the beginning of next season. He is a lousy fielder. He has trouble getting on base. He does have freakish power, but that is just not enough. I'd rather have Kearns who can play the OF and get on base, albeit without WMP's power. I just think that Kearns is a better fit for the Reds and that WMP shoudl be playing DH in the AL.

As for CF, I don't think there is anyone currently on the Reds roster who should be playing there next year.

[Cedric]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Perhaps the worst outfield play since Kevin Mitchell was a Red.

How come everyone always mentions his power and slugging heavy OPS... but nevr the .308 lifetime OB%?

I love his power, but he has to learn to field or get on base to become a GREAT ballplayer, unless eveyone is happy with the Juan Gonzalez career path.

What's wrong with Juan Gonzalez? He's like a two time mvp.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by Cedric

What's wrong with Juan Gonzalez? He's like a two time mvp.

MVP's really don't mean much to me. But Juan G is an OB challenged guy whose game was enhanced by his park and his price soon became pretty expensive for what he did (all power, poor fielding)

Since Juan G came into the league this is where he rates in Runs created vs the league.. just make it interesting we'll make 4000 PA's the rule

RUNS CREATED/GAME               DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE   
1    Barry Bonds                6.73    11.69     4.97   
2    Todd Helton                5.04    10.31     5.28   
3    Frank Thomas               4.19     9.23     5.03   
4    Mark McGwire               3.86     8.81     4.95   
5    Manny Ramirez              3.85     9.06     5.21   
6    Larry Walker               3.66     8.67     5.01   
7    Jim Thome                  3.58     8.78     5.20   
8    Brian Giles                3.24     8.53     5.29   
9    Edgar Martinez             3.20     8.22     5.02   
10   Jason Giambi               3.20     8.40     5.21   
11   Jeff Bagwell               3.08     8.15     5.07   
12   Bobby Abreu                2.97     8.24     5.27   
13   Carlos Delgado             2.92     8.13     5.21   
14   Alex Rodriguez             2.90     8.10     5.20   
15   Gary Sheffield             2.89     7.90     5.01   
16   Vladimir Guerrero          2.80     8.05     5.25   
17   Chipper Jones              2.77     7.99     5.22   
18   Ken Griffey Jr.            2.73     7.72     5.00   
19   Mike Piazza                2.49     7.66     5.17   
20   Jim Edmonds                2.45     7.72     5.26   
21   Will Clark                 2.37     7.28     4.91   
22   Nomar Garciaparra          2.37     7.55     5.18   
23   Albert Belle               2.20     7.27     5.07   
24   Rafael Palmeiro            2.17     7.14     4.97   
25   Mo Vaughn                  2.12     7.27     5.15   
26   Tim Salmon                 2.05     7.22     5.17   
27   Scott Rolen                1.98     7.22     5.23   
28   David Justice              1.92     6.89     4.97   
29   Fred McGriff               1.92     6.83     4.92   
30   Tony Gwynn                 1.90     6.75     4.85   
31   Rickey Henderson           1.84     6.77     4.93   
32   John Olerud                1.80     6.84     5.04   
33   Ellis Burks                1.80     6.71     4.91   
34   Paul Molitor               1.73     6.58     4.85   
35   Bernie Williams            1.73     6.84     5.11   
36   Ryan Klesko                1.71     6.92     5.21   
37   Moises Alou                1.65     6.76     5.10   
38   Rusty Greer                1.65     6.92     5.28   
39   Mike Sweeney               1.61     6.82     5.20   
40   Juan Gonzalez              1.61     6.65     5.04   
41   Mickey Tettleton           1.61     6.38     4.77   
42   Kirby Puckett              1.55     6.19     4.64   
43   Derek Jeter                1.55     6.76     5.21   
44   Sammy Sosa                 1.53     6.59     5.06   
45   Barry Larkin               1.48     6.45     4.97   
46   Magglio Ordonez            1.44     6.61     5.17   
47   Mark Grace                 1.40     6.35     4.94   
48   Jose Canseco               1.40     6.36     4.96   
49   Luis Gonzalez              1.39     6.49     5.10   
50   Chili Davis                1.36     6.24     4.88

BTW Bill James said Juan G is perhaps the most overrated player in the past 15 years, and I agree with him.

[flyer85]

But Juan G did understand how to extract the cash from teams.

His 2005 season was a thing of beauty.
- day after his contract is picked up in spring training he strains his hammy
- finally in June he is activated by the tribe.
- First AB in the first inning he pulls up lame running out a groundball
- back to the DL never to be seen again

[Cedric]

I'm not gonna argue against RC, I honestly don't know much about it. I'm asking this not in a condescending way, but how does he have a ops over .900 7 times, and once over 1.000 and not be a good hitter? He also has 5 years of 40 homers, and 3 years of at least 140 rbi's. Does RC trump everything else? Couldn't there be correlating reasons based on their lineup that caused his RC to be lower than what you would expect from a MVP? I just wanna understand how that all intertwines.

And I honestly don't care about Juan Gonzalez, I'm no fan. Just wondering about these stats.

[registerthis]

Originally Posted by smith288

I dont think I have ever seen a more pathetic at bat by any player at ANY level including coach pitch.

You know, I was going to post about that this morning. I was at the game last night, and Wily Mo looked as unprofessional as any hitter I have ever seen in my life. Forget the crowd chanting for Cordero to get the save, if Pena gets on the tying run--and the top of the order--comes up. Instead he looks at a pitch, takes a putrid half-swing at the second, then is practically already on his way to the dugout as the third pitch crossed home plate. It was just pathetic.

I would have rather seen Coffey up there--anyone who gave a crap about the at-bat. Pena clearly wanted nothing to do with it and just wanted to go home.

[pedro]

Frankly, I'd be happy if WMP had the same career path as Juan. I don't think he will.

[oneupper]

Originally Posted by Ricardo Cabesa

But Juan G did understand how to extract the cash from teams.

His 2005 season was a thing of beauty.
- day after his contract is picked up in spring training he strains his hammy
- finally in June he is activated by the tribe.
- First AB in the first inning he pulls up lame running out a groundball
- back to the DL never to be seen again

And WE complained about Junior. Shame on us

[Cedric]

Frankly everybody on the Reds has had an at bat that bad. I don't understand the hatred towards that one at bat. I love Adam Dunn, but he has been called out on pitches right down the middle more than any player on the team, and nobody on here says a word. I understand that Dunn takes WAY too much unwarranted heat here, but if we are gonna whine about every at bat we better not just rip Wily Mo.

[westofyou]

I'm asking this not in a condescending way, but how does he have a ops over .900 7 times, and once over 1.000 and not be a good hitter?

I never said he wasn't a good hitter, I just implied that he's overrated and dependant on his Power and Batting average.

His biggest years were in hitters parks on hitters teams so the counting stats can and are a bit inflated when compared across the league. One thing that pena would have to do to be Juan is hit over ,300. Juan has a lifetime BA of .295 and his best years were when he did have a good batting average (which is enhanced by that hitters park).

But Pena has never hit above .270 at any level and that's troubling when you don't walk.

Juan isn't a bad player, just the type that I would be careful giving lots of cash to, plus I wouldn't want him in a park like Petco.

[Cedric]

Thanks.