Inside the Front Office

[icehole3]

Then the next guy we hire, he wont be the guy either and on and on and on.

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by icehole3

Then the next guy we hire, he wont be the guy either and on and on and on.

That's simply the most defeatist thing I've ever heard.

Maybe you need to stop for a moment and read the responses your ostrich-speak has generated. Had Dan O'Brien joined the Reds and immediately done smart things, you'd see a different attitude. In fact, if Dan O'Brien had done smart things last offseason, some folks may have changed their opinion of him- even after his inept first year machinations.

But he hasn't done smart things. He's done dumb things. Really dumb things. Eric Milton dumb things. Sub-dice-rolling dumb things.

You could pull names from a hat and do better than Dan O'Brien has during his tenure. You could roll dice or flop cards or throw darts at a board while blindfolded and have a better chance of hitting on something that would help the Reds.

See, it's the General Manager's responsibility to put a quality MLB product on the field. Has Dan O'Brien done that? No. Has Dan O'Brien produced a high-level prospect cabable who's on the verge of helping the MLB franchise? No. Has Dan O'Brien acquired anyone in trade who will help the MLB franchise become a quality baseball team? No. In fact, O'Brien has done absolutely nothing to make the MLB product better and his drafting has set this franchise years behind where the developmental pipeline would be with a good General Manager at the helm.

Just appearing to have a "plan" might be enough for you to continue to support a completely inept GM, but most folks need to identify that a "plan" has a snowball's chance of working before they'll throw any support behind said plan's architect. Unfortunately, if Dan O'Brien were asked to build a house, the roof would be a wall, the home would have no ceiling, and the toilet would be firmly affixed to the external wall of the kitchen. If you don't know what a house is supposed to look like, you might mistake the construct for one but the reality is that it would be completely untenable- pretty much like your position in this thread.

But no worries. I expect you'll come around once you figure out the difference between smart baseball decisions and dumb ones.

[4256 Hits]

Originally Posted by icehole3

How on earth can anyone implement any type of program that was so depleted talent wise as this organization was in a little over a year and half time period.

I disagree completely this oranization was totally loaded w/ offensive talent at the MLB level. Granted the pitching was a major void but Linder gave him the money this offseason to fix that problem at the MLB level and goes out and spends 20+ Mil on 3 pitchers that have a combined ERA well over 6.

The kicker maybe the Milton (and Wilson) signing(s) very well may prevent them from having the money to keep Dunn.

[M2]

icehole, let's boil this down to its simplest point. The Reds are rebuilding (or at least should be). Name me a young player DanO's acquired who should be able to provide significant help in the next two years?

After you're done grasping at straws ask yourself if that's the successful execution of any sort of winning plan.

[WMR]

Originally Posted by M2

icehole, let's boil this down to its simplest point. The Reds are rebuilding (or at least should be). Name me a young player DanO's acquired who should be able to provide significant help in the next two years?

After you're done grasping at straws ask yourself if that's the successful execution of any sort of winning plan.

On a related note: Please see: Cleveland Indians; i.e. Mark Shapiro

[REDREAD]

Originally Posted by icehole3

Then the next guy we hire, he wont be the guy either and on and on and on.

I disagree. Let's look over the history of the message board. Whenever Bowden or DanO did something that was clearly good, most of the people praised him. For example, by the allstar break, there was pretty much universal consensus that Weathers, Mercker, and Randa were excellent moves. True, most people wanted to release Weathers after the first week, but they ended up coming around, once Weathers started producing.

It's impossible to defend DanO's bigger moves though, particularly Milton and Wilson. Ortiz isn't that big of a blunder to me IMO, we gave up nothing for him and we can cut him loose at the end of the year. Of course, there's the opportunity cost of the 4 million or so we paid Ortiz, but it's worth a shot.

DanO's other big goof is that he did NOTHING about the 4 OF situation. If anything, it's worse now. Cleveland (and likely other teams) were dangling quality young pitching for Kearns in the offseason and spring training, and DanO was to indecisive to pull the trigger. That's as big of a goof as signing Wilson, IMO.

[icehole3]

Originally Posted by M2

icehole, let's boil this down to its simplest point. The Reds are rebuilding (or at least should be). Name me a young player DanO's acquired who should be able to provide significant help in the next two years?

After you're done grasping at straws ask yourself if that's the successful execution of any sort of winning plan.

No one said he was going to win GM of the year so that question is irrelevant. The whole point being is to say to posters like yourself who follow every move and every stat like the National Hurricane Center should know that developing a different system from the previous regime that clearly had no regard for pitching (which is the key to a small market team winning) takes more than 1 1/2 years. Im just saying everyone calm down...give Lindner at least 1 more year to get it right. Dont sweat every transaction like Move On.org, unless you just hate the guy anyways then there's nothing I can do to lower your blood pressure...so if thats the case I'll just stick my head back in the sand and wait for the young kids who havent blown their arms off their collective shoulders to move up though the system because the GM decided it was better to handle his young pitchers like fine china.

:

[M2]

Originally Posted by icehole3

No one said he was going to win GM of the year so that question is irrelevant. The whole point being is to say to posters like yourself who follow every move and every stat like the National Hurricane Center should know that developing a different system from the previous regime that clearly had no regard for pitching (which is the key to a small market team winning) takes more than 1 1/2 years. Im just saying everyone calm down...give Lindner at least 1 more year to get it right. Dont sweat every transaction like Move On.org, unless you just hate the guy anyways then there's nothing I can do to lower your blood pressure...so if thats the case I'll just stick my head back in the sand and wait for the young kids who havent blown their arms off their collective shoulders to move up though the system because the GM decided it was better to handle his young pitchers like fine china.

That's the biggest cop out I've ever read.

This different approach he's supposedly taking hasn't produced so much as a single young player of any quality we can expect within a four year window. The guy's been on the job two years and so far he's been impotent. He hasn't even been able to find any advanced talent in the draft. BTW, the organization's been as promotion happy as ever with young pitchers, they just haven't had a lot of arms worthy of promoting.

Simply, there's nothing there. No youth movement. No grand remaking of the organization. No plan whatsoever. DanO's tenure has lacked both results and cohesion. That you can't tick off a list of his material accomplishments (or indeed a single accomplishment) is really all you need to know.

[westofyou]

No one said he was going to win GM of the year so that question is irrelevant.

Personally I could care less if he ever wins "GM of the Year" What would behoove me would be some more proaction as opposed to inaction.

Currently the Reds are working on their 5th straight losing season.

Here's probably the worst run of Reds teams that extends 5 years.

1945  7th     61   93  .396   37   
1946  6th     67   87  .435   30   
1947  5th     73   81  .474   21   
1948  7th     64   89  .418   27   
1949  7th     62   92  .403   35   
1950  6th     66   87  .431   24.5 
1951  6th     68   86  .442   28.5 
1952  6th     69   85  .448   27.5 
1953  6th     68   86  .442   37   
1954  5th     74   80  .481   23   
1955  5th     75   79  .487   23.5

So in essence the Reds currently are sitting in September of 1949, right towards the end of Warren Giles tenure as the Reds GM

The Reds are baseball's equivalent to Groundhog Day and O'Brien is Warren Giles in this version of that movie.

One thing to know about the Reds then is that Warren Giles was their President/Gm, a strict no-nonsense guy who was not known for his glibness or people skills with the players. He was in his 14th year as the Reds GM and was one of the major reasons the 1939-40 clubs succeeded (so he actually had a feather in his hat... unlike O'Brien) Giles at this time seemed more interested in not succeeding than succeeding, soley by the lack of moves he made and the buzz was that he was known as a penny pincher by the players and the club was known as a "cheap outfit" in the National League as related by Ewell Blackwell in "We played the Game"

So the Reds known as being cheap and had a GM that seemed paralyzed by the teams ineptness to the point that he himself couldn't dig them out of the hole they had fallen in.

The more things change the more they stay the same....

From the end of the 1949 season until the day that Giles became the NL President the Reds made exactly 1 trade that involved a starting player and this was after Giles had dumped slugger Hank Sauer and LF Baumhowitz in the mid season for 2 players that would never do anything for the Reds. That would be the equal to signing Eric Milton and Paul Wilson in my eyes.

So... sitting 5 seasons into a stinker of a run here are the trades Giles made in his last 2 years compared to the trades that Gabe Paul made in the one year since he replaced Giles:

The Transactions for the 1949-51 Cincinnati Reds

September 26, 1949
Purchased Nels Potter from Boston Braves.

October 14, 1949
Purchased Marv Rackley from Brooklyn Dodgers for $60000.

November 17, 1949
Major League Draft
Selected Rudy Minarcin from Philadelphia Phillies.

December 5, 1949
Minor League Draft
Lost Dewey Williams to Seattle (PCL).

December 14, 1949
Traded Harry Walker to St. Louis Cardinals in exchange 
for Lou Klein and RonNorthey.

1950
Ed Bailey signed as an amateur free agent.
Dutch Dotterer signed as an amateur free agent.
Don Gross signed as an amateur free agent.
Bob Hazle signed as an amateur free agent.
Ted Tappe signed as an amateur free agent.

February 10, 1950
Sold Johnny Vander Meer to Chicago Cubs.

May 8, 1950
Lost Frank Fanovich to New York Giants on waivers.

May 10, 1950
Sold Jimmy Bloodworth to Philadelphia Phillies.
Purchased Willie Ramsdell from Brooklyn Dodgers.
Traded Walker Cooper to Boston Braves in exchange for Connie Ryan.

June 2, 1950
Ray Lamanno released.

June 7, 1950
Traded Ron Northey to Chicago Cubs in exchange for Bob Scheffing.

June 20, 1950
Jim Bolger signed as an amateur free agent.

September 7, 1950
Sold Peanuts Lowrey to St. Louis Cardinals.

October 11, 1950
Sold Johnny Hetki to St. Louis Browns.

December 4, 1950
Danny Litwhiler released.

1951
Bobby Durnbaugh signed as an amateur free agent.
Joe Trimble released.

May 4, 1951
Purchased Barney McCosky from Philadelphia Athletics.

July 21, 1951
Claimed Hank Edwards from Brooklyn Dodgers on waivers.
Lost Barney McCosky to Cleveland Indians on waivers.

July 28, 1951
Danny Litwhiler signed as a free agent.

August 1, 1951
Lost Bob Scheffing to St. Louis Cardinals on waivers.

After Giles left Gabe Paul took over as GM and started to make some moves..... this team needs a Gabe Paul, not a Warren Giles

October 4, 1951

Traded Johnny Pramesa and Bob Usher to Chicago Cubs
in exchange for Smoky Burgess and Bob Borkowski.

November 19, 1951
Major League Draft
Selected Hank Foiles from New York Yankees.
Selected Joe Rossi from Portland (PCL).

December 3, 1951
Minor League Draf
Selected Ed Sanicki from Philadelphia Phillies.

December 10, 1951
Traded Connie Ryan, Smoky Burgess and Howie Fox 
to Philadelphia Philliesin exchange for Andy Seminick, 
Eddie Pellagrini, Dick Sisler and Niles Jordan.

January 3, 1952
Traded Willie Ramsdell to Chicago Cubs in exchange for Frank Hiller.

May 13, 1952
Traded Dick Sisler and Virgil Stallcup to St. Louis Cardinals in 
exchange for Eddie Kazak and Wally Westlake.

May 23, 1952
Traded Johnny Wyrostek and Kent Peterson 
to Philadelphia Phillies in exchange for Bubba Church.

May 25, 1952
Claimed Phil Haugstad from Brooklyn Dodgers on waivers.

June 4, 1952
Purchased Willard Marshall from Boston Braves.

June 9, 1952
Traded Rudy Rufer and cash to Brooklyn Dodgers 
in exchange for Cal Abrams.

June 15, 1952
Traded Bud Byerly and cash to Brooklyn Dodgers 
in exchange for Bud Podbielan.

July 2, 1952
Phil Haugstad released.

July 6, 1952
Purchased Nino Escalera from Toledo-Charleston 
(American Association).  

August 7, 1952
Sold Wally Westlake to Cleveland Indians.

August 28, 1952
Traded Ewell Blackwell to New York Yankees 
in exchange for Johnny Schmitz, Jim Greengrass, 
Ernie Nevel, Bob Marquis and $35000.

September 1, 1952
Traded Hank Edwards to Chicago White Sox 
in exchange for a player to be named later; 
Cincinnati Reds received Howie Judson (December 9, 1952).

October 10, 1952
Sold Dixie Howell to Brooklyn Dodgers.
Purchased Clyde King from Brooklyn Dodgers.

October 13, 1952
Traded Frank Hiller to New York Giants in exchange for Gail Henley.

October 14, 1952
Traded Cal Abrams, Joe Rossi and Gail Henley 
to Pittsburgh Pirates in exchange for Gus Bell.

[icehole3]

You absolutely blow me away with your historical analyst. Excuse me while I go back into my hole.

[redsfanmia]

This team needs to move in a new direction, I think we all know that. DanO's successes have been few and his failures have been many. He is way to indecisive to be a successful gm in my opinion. I feel that he fails to make moves because he is afraid of making the wrong move so instead of doing something he is doing nothing. Signing Randa was a good move then turning him for two pitchers who might help in the future was a great move, Mercker and Weathers were good moves, and really Ortiz hasnt been a complete waste. Signing D-Lo is inexcuseable when there was a better and cheaper replacement in Freel at second base. There needs to be major changes made in the organization, but honestly as long as current ownership is still in place nothing is going to happen. I hope that we get a good solid owner who is not afraid to make changes and not letting the fanbase dictate who stays and who goes.

[jnwohio]

How relevant the focus on DanO is at this point? Right now he probably has about as much (little) unilateral authority as we followers of this board do.

That majority stake in the team will be sold most likely sometime between mid November and the first of 2006. If the Lindners end up exercising 1st refusal, then DanO's future is a legit issue. However, if somebody else ends up with the majority share then either they will be in outright control or the Reds will be in the midst of a transition plan which will pass control to the new majority owners over some period of time.

If the new folks are in control immediately, Allen and DanO are probably both history their first day on the job. If there is a transition period, Allen and perhaps even DanO probably survive thru next season. But even if they are around as part of a transition, we don't know what their marching orders will be.


For my part, I am just hoping for an early quick clean transaction that does not leave the team handcuffed during the prime weeks of player retention and acquisition decisions.

[deltachi8]

Eric Milton.

Thats enough to get you fired in my book. I actually like some of what he has done in the minors (save for the tandem rotation thing). However, when you know a guy is a fly ball pitcher, GABP is a home run friendly park AND the guy has had some issues with his knee you still give him $25M. And why? because you panicked when Matt Clement turned you down. O'Brien did the right thing going after Clement, but the decision to go all in when you dont get the right cards, is just plain foolish. Your better off folding and ready yourself to play another hand.

The Paul Wilson signing was icing on the cake.

[REDREAD]

Here's probably the worst run of Reds teams that extends 5 years. [cut, but it was 1945-1955]

Sadly, I think the group of bumbling idiots running this club are going to challenge that record. Assuming there isn't a major cash infusion, I just don't see the enough talent arriving from the farm to turn things around within 5 years.

Although I guess it's possible for DanO to get canned, and for the Reds to hire a guy that's good at bottom feeding and patching the team to slightly over .500 with retreads.

[zombie-a-go-go]

Originally Posted by REDREAD

Although I guess it's possible for DanO to get canned, and for the Reds to hire a guy that's good at bottom feeding and patching the team to slightly over .500 with retreads.

Anyone know if Bowden's going to be available this offseason?