Reds vs. Phillies - 9/24/05 - How Long Will Milton Last?

[Big Klu]

Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds All-Time Home Run Leaders
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Ted Kluszewski - 251
5. George Foster - 244
6. Eric Davis - 203
7. Barry Larkin - 198
8. Vada Pinson - 186
9. Wally Post - 172
10. Gus Bell - 160
11. Adam Dunn - 156
12. Joe Morgan - 152
12. Pete Rose - 152
14. Lee May - 147
15. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 138
16. Dan Driessen - 133
17. Reggie Sanders - 125
18. Ernie Lombardi - 120
19. Sean Casey - 118
20. Frank McCormick - 110
21. Dave Parker - 107
22. Chris Sabo - 104
23. Dave Concepcion - 101
24. Gordy Coleman - 98
25. Paul O'Neill - 96

[M2]

Originally Posted by Reds Nd2

Sure the fans may hate the down time of so many pitching changes, but I hope your kidding about MLB banning the managers choice of bringing in a relief pitcher.

No, I'm completely serious. Managers sometimes make the product unwatchable in the late innings.

Cito Gaston literally managed the life out of the best live game I've ever seen (Roger Clemens' return to Boston) by bringing in four relievers to close out the game.

There's all sorts of limits and regulations in the game of baseball and there ought to be some meatier ones concerning reliever usage. I'm a hardliner, I think you shouldn't be able to make more than one mid-inning reliever switch per game. For sure you shouldn't be able to do it more than once per inning.

The league pays a lot of lip service to cutting down game times and making a more entertaining product. Here's an opportunity to do it. Managers would carp about it, but I think it would actually bring about some positive changes. Pitchers would know they can't be looking over their shoulders and teams would have to find relievers capable of getting three outs without taking a bloodletting. It would put a higher premium on innings from the starting staff and you'd probably see teams carry fewer relievers as a result.

Why continue a practice that drives fans away at the very moment when the game's reaching its most critical juncture?

[M2]

flyer, I remember lots of people speculating that Mark Mulder was washed up before Beane traded him (I was not one of those people). He was shopping for the best he could get from the Cardinals. A young starter to replace Mulder, a quality middle reliever and a dynamite prospect bat was what the Cardinals had to offer and he got it. It gets back to my original point. Beane knows talent. He proves it every season. I don't care if it's trades, draft or free agency, they aren't unrelated silos.

Beane he knows how to identify a problem and address it. He doesn't wait around . He can spot talent. I can't say any of that for the guy running the Reds these days.

FCB, the Yanks can replace Jaret Wright with Aaron Small right now if they so choose. They've got Johnson and Mussina. They had Chien-Ming Wang on hand when they needed a young pitcher. They dredged for Small and Shawn Chacon. No one's shedding a tear for Brandon Claussen.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by M2

flyer, I remember lots of people speculating that Mark Mulder was washed up before Beane traded him (I was not one of those people). He was shopping for the best he could get from the Cardinals. A young starter to replace Mulder, a quality middle reliever and a dynamite prospect bat was what the Cardinals had to offer and he got it. It gets back to my original point. Beane knows talent. He proves it every season. I don't care if it's trades, draft or free agency, they aren't unrelated silos.

Beane he knows how to identify a problem and address it. He doesn't wait around . He can spot talent. I can't say any of that for the guy running the Reds these days.

FCB, the Yanks can replace Jaret Wright with Aaron Small right now if they so choose. They've got Johnson and Mussina. They had Chien-Ming Wang on hand when they needed a young pitcher. They dredged for Small and Shawn Chacon. No one's shedding a tear for Brandon Claussen.

Well, pointing to Claussen alone misses the larger point that if you make your living trading away greater talent for lesser talent you're going to be hard-pressed, over the long haul, to sustain success, no matter how rich.

If the Yanks even make it to the playoffs this year, they're a first-round exit.

[MWM]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

If the Yanks even make it to the playoffs this year, they're a first-round exit.

I think the Yanks will be the AL rep in the WS. With the way Randy Johnson is throwing right now and with the offense clicking like it is, I don't see a team in AL going to the playoffs, except MAYBE Cleveland, that is in better shape right now than the Yanks. It's not that I think they're a juggernaut, but I don't see ANY team in the AL really positioned well for the post-season.

The Cards are going to win it all this year and I think they're going to do it in dominating fashion.

[westofyou]

The Cards are going to win it all this year and I think they're going to do it in dominating fashion.

Nah... Tribe/Angels and Cards/Braves with The Tribe winning the Series... you heard it here first.

[Falls City Beer]

Gotta go with Halos trouncing the Cards judy-rotation.

(And don't mess with my predicto-tron 5000--I called Boston over Cards in a sweep around this time last year, so.....).

The Cards are that perfect vase, cold, symmetrical, and bloodless.

[M2]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Well, pointing to Claussen alone misses the larger point that if you make your living trading away greater talent for lesser talent you're going to be hard-pressed, over the long haul, to sustain success, no matter how rich.

If the Yanks even make it to the playoffs this year, they're a first-round exit.

They can maul the White Sox or Angels.

The Yankees don't have to worry about the margins on prospect-for-veteran trades. They have money. The only prospects they keep are the ones who can star. Otherwise it's a cash business. They've sustained success without much of a farm system for this entire decade. Mind you, they'd be way more dangerous if they were to come up with another group like Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, Andy Pettitte and Mariano Rivera, but that's a matter wholly unrelated to Claussen.

[Reds Nd2]

Originally Posted by M2

No, I'm completely serious. Managers sometimes make the product unwatchable in the late innings.

Cito Gaston literally managed the life out of the best live game I've ever seen (Roger Clemens' return to Boston) by bringing in four relievers to close out the game.

There's all sorts of limits and regulations in the game of baseball and there ought to be some meatier ones concerning reliever usage. I'm a hardliner, I think you shouldn't be able to make more than one mid-inning reliever switch per game. For sure you shouldn't be able to do it more than once per inning.

The league pays a lot of lip service to cutting down game times and making a more entertaining product. Here's an opportunity to do it. Managers would carp about it, but I think it would actually bring about some positive changes. Pitchers would know they can't be looking over their shoulders and teams would have to find relievers capable of getting three outs without taking a bloodletting. It would put a higher premium on innings from the starting staff and you'd probably see teams carry fewer relievers as a result.

Why continue a practice that drives fans away at the very moment when the game's reaching its most critical juncture?

M2, that's a very interesting response but I don't agree. I'm more about seeing a winning product on the field, than I am seeing a watchable product or the league cutting down on the time it takes for a game to be played. After all, the only clock in baseball is 27 outs. Just because the casual fan thinks the game is taking too long to reach it's ending doesn't really concern me in the slightest. The manager has to be able to make the moves he feels will be best for the team winning a particular game. Any attempts by MLB to limit that, in an attempt to speed the game up or make it more interesting is wrong, IMO.

Was Narron a complete tool tonight, bringing in four relievers to complete an inning? Maybe, but the Reds did win because/despite it. That is another topic altogether though.

The fans are already being driven away from the game and it's not because a manager uses too many relievers in an inning. Well, it may be one reason, but it's on the low end of the totem pole. I still hear people complaining because the W.S was cancelled. The freaking All-Star game ended in a tie. Bonds is about to break the HR record while using steroids. MLB isn't marketing to younger fans like other sports. The Yankees spend too much money and my team will never win because of it. I'm sure you know better than me, theres a very diverse set of reasons that fans are turning away from baseball. Long down times because of pitching changes should be the least of MLB's concerns.

[KittyDuran]

Good thing I went to the game - otherwise, judging from this thread I'd never known who won... :

wow ... a Tucker sighting

Yeah, he was really great in the Phillies BP. Him and a few other Phillies shagging balls in the OF were clowning around w/the fans, trying to kick "field goals" with a makeshift football [ball in glove] into the stands, doing trick catches, etc.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by M2

They've sustained success without much of a farm system for this entire decade.

And frankly, their product gets thinner and thinner. They've looked like kittens or complete dogs at some juncture in the postseason for the last 5 seasons and they're on the brink of not even making it this time around. We're seeing what's wrong with limiting talent influx to FA acquisitions.

[WVRedsFan]

Regardless of how the Yankkes fare this year and whether or not you change pitchers too often (he does), I'm 1-1 in starting game threads and I now retire. I can't stand going below .500 (unlike the ownership of the Reds who are content to do that year after year).

Somebody please start it tomorrow. I'm going to the race!

[M2]

Originally Posted by Reds Nd2

M2, that's a very interesting response but I don't agree. I'm more about seeing a winning product on the field, than I am seeing a watchable product or the league cutting down on the time it takes for a game to be played.

That's nice to say, but I submit that unless the product is watchable you're probably not paying attention to the winning or losing. After all, the league needs people to follow the losing teams as well as the winning ones. You can't have the one without the other.

Plus, what does being able to drain the life out of the game contribute to your team's individual ability to win? The other team's playing by the same rules. Ultimately what wins over a season is whether you've got the talent beat the other team more often than not. Either you've got the pitchers to get the outs or you don't. Managerial hijinks, from every study I've ever seen, amount to just about nothing over the course of the season. Beyond that, new limitations just place more importance on making the right call at the start of the inning or in using that mid-inning switch at the exact right time. The current system lets managers rummage through a few mistakes and not pay for it.

What we've got right now, and we know this, is pattern of using relievers that makes people leave the ballpark early or change the channel. Even gonzo baseball fans don't like watching multiple calls to the pen. So why keep it? Tony LaRussa's ego will survive.

[M2]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

And frankly, their product gets thinner and thinner. They've looked like kittens or complete dogs at some juncture in the postseason for the last 5 seasons and they're on the brink of not even making it this time around. We're seeing what's wrong with limiting talent influx to FA acquisitions.

I agree they're not the beast they were and that relying on free agency as your primary team-building method leaves you long-in-the-tooth at all the wrong times.

Yet what the Yankees need isn't marginal young players. They need to more stars coming up through the system. They've got all the resources to do it. For whatever reason they just haven't been able to get that together for that past decade. The B prospects, the maybes, the projects, those kids would still be getting farmed out to fill immediate needs.

[919191]

I was in right field during batting practice whe Tucker was with a couple others doing the football thing like Kitty said. He got in in the stands once and yelled up to the guy that caught it to throw it back to him, which he did. They were all laughing so hard they could hardly stand straight. It was fun to watch.