Top 5 most underrated Reds players of past 25 years

[M2]

Originally Posted by dfs

I don't know what to say about this other than to say watching Jason LaRue behind the plate is almost as bad as watching WMP and Dunn in the outfield. Well, now that I think about it, yes, it is worse. There is hope that WMP will settle down and Dunn's problems certainly seemed to be attention related.

What I see when I watch Jason LaRue catch....
Jason LaRue doesn't set a target for his pitchers.
Jason LaRue doesn't frame the pitches well for the umpire.
Jason LaRue doesn't manage his pitchers on the field.
Jason LaRue doesn't throw particularly well anymore.
Jason LaRue waves his mit at anything in the dirt and the official scorer at GAB calls it a wild pitch. I swear I've seen balls bounce off Jason's chest protector called a wild pitch.

Watch for it and you'll see the same stuff. None of it is new. It's been going on since he came up. It seems impossible to me that 4 consecutive former catchers have managed Jason and nobody says boo about it. All that stuff looks small, but set it in the context of a team that can't get anybody out with K's or with the glove, and it looms huge.

Jason LaRue at the plate is an asset. He can hit for a catcher just fine, but Jason LaRue with the leather is part of the ongoing defensive/pitching problems that kill this roster as a major league team.

Jason LaRue is most certainly not under-rated.

sorry about that....back to your regularly scheduled web-board.

Yeah, I couldn't disagree with that post more.

[alex trevino]

Tony Fernandez
Ron Gant
Greg vaughn
Ken Griffey Sr.
Cesar Geronimo
Tom Hall
Mike Cameron
Clay Kirby

I think Ryan Freel continues to be underratted.

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by M2

Yeah, I couldn't disagree with that post more.

Sounds like someone got stiffed for an autograph.

[dfs]

Sounds like someone got stiffed for an autograph.

heh. No. My comments come from observation and they do sound harsh.
When the games start up again, make a point of watching LaRue for an inning and then watch the other teams catcher for the next frame, you will see what I mean.

As a a balance I think Jason is likely a very valuable baseball comodity, but I think he's a terrible fit for this team with Valentin already on the roster.

I think this team needs somebody behind the plate to give their pitchers and fielders every break they possible can get and that's not LaRue.
Put him in a place where they had a pitching staff or decent defense and I would even say he's underpaid.

No, way is he underrated.

[registerthis]

You say that LaRue is a liability to this team, but where? Offensively, we all agree that he's an asset. But his defense is at or slightly above league average, and I've not heard any complaints from the pitchers about the way he calls a game. He can't be blamed for having to catch the worst staff in the NL this side of Coors Field--Johnny Bench couldn't do much with this staff.

So aside from your own obersvations about how he frames pitches and sets targets, what can you give to support the notion that LaRue is a liability? There's nothing in laRue's stats that supports your repeated assertions of his awfulness. If you think LaRue is a sub-par catcher, your standards for catching must be extraordinarily high.

[M2]

Originally Posted by dfs

heh. No. My comments come from observation and they do sound harsh.
When the games start up again, make a point of watching LaRue for an inning and then watch the other teams catcher for the next frame, you will see what I mean.

As a a balance I think Jason is likely a very valuable baseball comodity, but I think he's a terrible fit for this team with Valentin already on the roster.

I think this team needs somebody behind the plate to give their pitchers and fielders every break they possible can get and that's not LaRue.
Put him in a place where they had a pitching staff or decent defense and I would even say he's underpaid.

No, way is he underrated.

Pretend the people around here have seen a few Reds games and have paid more than a little attention to LaRue's defense over the years. Yes, he's got his rough edges. They add up to very little in the final tally and they're more than offset by his defensive plusses - strong arm, quick out of the box on bunts and popups, ferocious at blocking the plate.

He's not aesthetically pleasing to some catching purists. Bob Boone was one of those people. Bob Boone also managed to commit 22 errors behind the plate once upon a time. He allowed 19 PB the season before that. Boone was still a great defensive catcher despite those blemishes.

LaRue's not a great defensive catcher, but mountains have been made of the molehills that are his flaws.

[westofyou]

They add up to very little in the final tally and they're more than offset by his defensive plusses - strong arm, quick out of the box on bunts and popups, ferocious at blocking the plate.

I went to the first game after the AS game against the Rockies, and LaRue went 0-3 but man he was good elsewhere.

Larue pounced on a bunt and nailed the guy in an effortless motion and later blocked the plate on a Griffey laser to nail the runner going for the tieing run.

He also called a great game and Harang had a 7 K 1 BB night.

[dfs]

I don't think I ever implied people here weren't watching the games. I find that my attention wanders if I don't plan to focus on something and I'm just asking you to focus on it for a couple innings. I first noticed Jason's D when somebody else pointed it out a couple years back. My first reaction was "that can't be right," so I started to watch for it specifically fairly often. I keep seeing the same thing. It certainly wasn't one game.

As to Bob Boone, well, he had enough squirrelly ideas that it's not suprising the nut had one right.

I would love to be able to point at sabre type proof that would illustrate what I see, but there are no stats kept on strikes given away because the catcher didn't frame the pitch or set the target. What's an extra strike worth 4 times a night? In the right situations that alone would elevate this pitching staff all the way up to below average.

The reds are a 70 win team because they let the other team score too many runs. They need to be doing everything they can to help their pitchers succeed and that's not LaRue's strength.

He's a valuable guy, but not a good fit for this team. I'll truly be shocked if the reds are a competitive team while he's behind the plate.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by dfs

I don't think I ever implied people here weren't watching the games. I find that my attention wanders if I don't plan to focus on something and I'm just asking you to focus on it for a couple innings. I first noticed Jason's D when somebody else pointed it out a couple years back. My first reaction was "that can't be right," so I started to watch for it specifically fairly often. I keep seeing the same thing. It certainly wasn't one game.

As to Bob Boone, well, he had enough squirrelly ideas that it's not suprising the nut had one right.

I would love to be able to point at sabre type proof that would illustrate what I see, but there are no stats kept on strikes given away because the catcher didn't frame the pitch or set the target. What's an extra strike worth 4 times a night? In the right situations that alone would elevate this pitching staff all the way up to below average.

The reds are a 70 win team because they let the other team score too many runs. They need to be doing everything they can to help their pitchers succeed and that's not LaRue's strength.

He's a valuable guy, but not a good fit for this team. I'll truly be shocked if the reds are a competitive team while he's behind the plate.

I think what you are not considering is that the Reds would not necessarily be any better with a catcher that did the "little things" you point out, unless that catcher could also do the things that JL does do well defensively and hit as well as JL does. It's a big assumption, and one that many of us feel is faulty.

[Mario-Rijo]

I think what you are not considering is that the Reds would not necessarily be any better with a catcher that did the "little things" you point out, unless that catcher could also do the things that JL does do well defensively and hit as well as JL does. It's a big assumption, and one that many of us feel is faulty.

Excellent way to put it Pedro!

[Cedric]

Originally Posted by pedro

I think what you are not considering is that the Reds would not necessarily be any better with a catcher that did the "little things" you point out, unless that catcher could also do the things that JL does do well defensively and hit as well as JL does. It's a big assumption, and one that many of us feel is faulty.

What is little about what DFS said? That's honestly the biggest part of being a catcher in my opinion, and the main reason I think Jason Larue is also anything but underrated.

[pedro]

Originally Posted by Cedric

What is little about what DFS said? That's honestly the biggest part of being a catcher in my opinion, and the main reason I think Jason Larue is also anything but underrated.

I just believe DFS is overestimating the impact of what he, and others (such as you), feel are Jason's shortcomings, without giving credit to the real value of what he does do well.

[Cedric]

I give him plenty of credit for being an above average offensive catcher. It's just my opinion that doesn't make up for his lacking in the more important areas. Just an opinion.

[dfs]

I think what you are not considering is that the Reds would not necessarily be any better with a catcher that did the "little things" you point out, unless that catcher could also do the things that JL does do well defensively and hit as well as JL does. It's a big assumption, and one that many of us feel is faulty.

I think it's a matter of degree. I think Jason LaRue does the little things SO badly that it's a big thing.

It's not like I've tarred all the other catcher because of memories of JB. I can see why Joe Oliver is on some people's under-rated lists. Dan Wilson caught a mean game. Bo was fine. Benito...well, Benito had his own way. Eddie Taubensee got holy hell from the press about his technique but he never looked that bad to me. This is different.

Look, I recognize that my opinion is not a popular one and my prose isn't going to convince anybody. I'm fine with that. What I'm asking for here is a sanity check. When the games start again....watch LaRue closely and then watch the other catcher. Pay attention to JUST that part of the game. Let me know what you see. I'll try and remember to ask the same questions in June and see what you think.

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by dfs

What I'm asking for here is a sanity check. When the games start again....watch LaRue closely and then watch the other catcher. Pay attention to JUST that part of the game. Let me know what you see. I'll try and remember to ask the same questions in June and see what you think.

Actually, you're not asking for a "sanity check". You're asking for an unneccessary re-evaluation of something others have already seen enough of to be able to form a reasonable opinion on the subjective elements involved with catching at the MLB level.

The fact that reasonable objective fans don't agree with you isn't an indication that they're not watching closely enough.