Could the Reds have possibly gotten more for Sean Casey and Wily Mo Pena?

[registerthis]

Originally Posted by traderumor

That's hogwash. There is a megapost thread that discusses nearly everything but what Arroyo eats for breakfast and what kind of toilet paper he uses. And that might be in there somewhere, I might have just missed it because of all the posts.

Wheaties and Charmin, I hear.

I can't believe the Reds traded WMP for a guy that uses Charmin TP. Ridiculous. They could have at least gotten a guy who uses Charmin AND a guy who uses Cottonelle. The Reds got fleeced.

[remdog]

Originally Posted by traderumor

That's hogwash. There is a megapost thread that discusses nearly everything but what Arroyo eats for breakfast and what kind of toilet paper he uses. And that might be in there somewhere, I might have just missed it because of all the posts.

Then maybe that hog that needs washing. 'Cause the point you and every other supporter of the trade consistantly ignored was not that Arroyo wasn't a step up in terms of pitching but that it was, and will be in the future, a trade that will not put the Reds in contention for this year and it took away a potential trading chip that might have made a difference down the road.

But hey, I don't expect everyone to understand that. In fact, I don't expect most of the 'masses' to understand it. As P.T Barnum said......

[RedsBaron]

Originally Posted by MartyFan

The only way I see getting more value for Casey was trading him a couple of years earlier...same with WMP.

Yep. I would have loved to have seen the Reds trade Casey after the 2004 season, and he should have brought more in return then.

[remdog]

Originally Posted by westofyou

As if any other sort of place was attainable?

If most "zoners" didn't know who Arroyo was by your POV, I'll counter that most of them also know that there's a snowball's chance in hell of the Reds even finishing 2nd in their division, with Arroyo or Pena or even both on the team.

And I'll counter that there is a significant group of people on this site that have their heads ummmm, in the clouds and think that this is a trade that made the season and don't consider or even think about effects down the road.

Rem

[Heath]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

While the optimists claim a sleeper year and there are others claiming them to be the worst team in the NL.

Whether Casey, Pena, or Arroyo et. al. would make a difference, who knows.

There are other things to worry about.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by MattyMo4Life

I don't think so. Most Zoners were all for getting Arroyo at the time of the trade. There is a big difference between wanting more in a deal than not wanting the deal at all.

Agreed. I still think they could have gotten more, but it is what it is.

[registerthis]

Originally Posted by remdog

But hey, I don't expect everyone to understand that. In fact, I don't expect most of the 'masses' to understand it. As P.T Barnum said......

Of course, YOU consistently neglect the fact that a pitcher like Arroyo is capable of making us competitive in years to come. The "potential trading chip down the road" may or may not ever pan out to the value some people here wish to assign to him, ignoring the fact that we got an above-average starter for three years at a very affordable price for him.

But then again, you'd rather just generalize and toss around irrelevant P.T. Barnum references.

[TRF]

rem may be gruff, but I don't think the PT Barnum content is irrelevent. We've been carny fodder for quite some time, and we keep coming back for more.

The last time the Reds won a trade was Guillen for Harang. Mateo and EE for Rob Bell might also constitute a win. Everything besides those 2 moves in 6 years... pfft!

Casey was traded a year too late. For a number 5 starter.
WMP a half season (at best) too soon. For a number 3 starter. At best. And I actually think for at least the first half, he'll pitch like a #2.

I'm not asking that the GM fleece a team. But it would be nice to at least break even and actually improve the club. Dave Williams does not improve this club. Arroyo does, but he could have been had at the break, especially if the Sox get a little nervous in what might shape up to be a 3 team race this season. And if they do.. the price goes up.

BUt what we got was more sleight of hand. "Folks, he's better than what we had... pay no attention to that Hatteberg behind the curtain!"

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by remdog

Then maybe that hog that needs washing. 'Cause the point you and every other supporter of the trade consistantly ignored was not that Arroyo wasn't a step up in terms of pitching but that it was, and will be in the future, a trade that will not put the Reds in contention for this year and it took away a potential trading chip that might have made a difference down the road.

But hey, I don't expect everyone to understand that. In fact, I don't expect most of the 'masses' to understand it. As P.T Barnum said......

Gee, thanks for letting all of us suckers in on your irrefutable genius. Not to mention that the P.T. Barnum story is a myth.

[westofyou]

Not to mention that the P.T. Barnum story is a myth.

Does that mean Wily Mo is the Cardiff Giant of baseball players?

[registerthis]

Originally Posted by TRF

rem may be gruff, but I don't think the PT Barnum content is irrelevent. We've been carny fodder for quite some time, and we keep coming back for more.

So by virtue of the fact that the Reds have lost more trades than they've won, Reds fans are incapable of judging a trade on its merits?

I don't buy it.

Those of us who supported the WMP-BA trade aren't suckers or homers--we simply looked at the players involved, what they might bring to their respective clubs, and were satisfied with the results.

No one here has a monopoly on the truth, so throwing out lines calling people who feel differently than you "suckers" is irrelevant and asinine.

[RedsManRick]

While I think most us agree that it doesn't look like Dave Williams will be a valuable member of the Reds, perhaps we should let his performance bear that out before declaring that we could've gotten better value from Casey.

The fact is that, like Pena, his availability was no secret and that if any significantly better offer were on the table, it would have been acted on. The shame in the Casey trade is that we traded while his value was low and then O'Brien turned around and turned some of the value we got back in to Tony Womack. If that cash we saved had instead been turned in to something useful, the Casey deal may look better in retrospect.

That all said, if Dave Williams gives us 180 IP with a 4.20 ERA this year, I don't think anybody can say we got poor value for Casey.

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Does that mean Wily Mo is the Cardiff Giant of baseball players?

I guess that will depend on the yarns Red Sox fans spin on top of the myths spread far and wide in Reds Country.

[registerthis]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

The shame in the Casey trade is that we traded while his value was low

That's the problem right there. Everyone and their mother knew Casey should have been dealt after the 2004 season. Well, everyone except our own GM, it seems.