Scott Hatteberg: On-Base Machine

[Jpup]

Scott Hatteberg is 10th in the NL in on base percentage at .401. I think it's simply amazing what this guy has done for the Reds.

The 9 guys in front of him are all-star caliber players:

Abreu, Pujols, Cabrera, Johnson, Bay, Garciaparra, Rolen, Helton, Wright and then Hatteberg.

I don't find very much talk about Hatteberg or his great season, but this guy has been a steal. I have to think that someone would find him a very valuable commodity in a playoff race. His counting stats aren't very good, but all he does is get on base, nothing to complain about there IMO.

Opinions on his season or trade value?

[RedFanAlways1966]

Originally Posted by Jpup

Scott Hatteberg is 10th in the NL in on base percentage at .401. I think it's simply amazing what this guy has done for the Reds.

I don't find very much talk about Hatteberg or his great season, but this guy has been a steal.

Good post, Jpup. And very true. I am sure someone will complain about the guy... b/c he does not hit enough HRs. That is what firstbaseman do... hit HRs, right?

[smith288]

Watch out Jpup....some here think Mr Hatte is Castro level as a hitter. Why, I have no clue.

[SirFelixCat]

Originally Posted by Jpup

Scott Hatteberg is 10th in the NL in on base percentage at .401. I think it's simply amazing what this guy has done for the Reds.

The 9 guys in front of him are all-star caliber players:

Abreu, Pujols, Cabrera, Johnson, Bay, Garciaparra, Rolen, Helton, Wright and then Hatteberg.

I don't find very much talk about Hatteberg or his great season, but this guy has been a steal. I have to think that someone would find him a very valuable commodity in a playoff race. His counting stats aren't very good, but all he does is get on base, nothing to complain about there IMO.

Opinions on his season or trade value?

I was one of the loudest voices on this board against the WMP trade because I thought Hatte would then become a blackhole of a starting 1B.

I GLADLY eat those words. While not stellar, he has been MUCH better than anyone here thought he would be, and I'm grateful for that. I would think WKriv could flip him for some BP help near the deadline....

[Jpup]

Originally Posted by SC Reds Fans

I was one of the loudest voices on this board against the WMP trade because I thought Hatte would then become a blackhole of a starting 1B.

I GLADLY eat those words. While not stellar, he has been MUCH better than anyone here thought he would be, and I'm grateful for that. I would think WKriv could flip him for some BP help near the deadline....

Hatteberg has been stellar IMO. He's almost what some would call "clutch."

Close and Late:

27 ABs .296/.424/.481/.905 6 BB

The rest of the story is that he should play against both lefties and righties. He's actually been a little better against lefties this year.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by smith288

Watch out Jpup....some here think Mr Hatte is Castro level as a hitter. Why, I have no clue.

That would be me. OBP is a dandy statistic but when you are on pace for a .288-9-39 season with a .400 OBP and 60 runs scored in 423 ABs, then those walks aren't doing much IMO. If he was on pace to score 85 runs in those PAs, then I would be happier. Or even knock in 70 runs. Or play above average defense. But I don't see much value in what he has brought to the table. If they moved Dunn to 1B and put Freel/Deno in LF, it would make the lineup more impressive. But since OBP is the darling of this board, it doesn't seem to matter if you do anything else as long as you accumulate walks. He hasn't had good run production at all while having a good walk rate. And that's a fact.

[Jpup]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

That would be me. OBP is a dandy statistic but when you are on pace for a .288-9-39 season with a .400 OBP and 60 runs scored in 423 ABs, then those walks aren't doing much IMO. If he was on pace to score 85 runs in those PAs, then I would be happier. Or even knock in 70 runs. Or play above average defense. But I don't see much value in what he has brought to the table. If they moved Dunn to 1B and put Freel/Deno in LF, it would make the lineup more impressive. But since OBP is the darling of this board, it doesn't seem to matter if you do anything else as long as you accumulate walks. He hasn't had good run production at all while having a good walk rate. And that's a fact.

the fact is that he can not score runs if someone else doesn't drive him in. If he is batting 6th or 7th in the order, he isn't going to score many runs. Bat him second and see what happens. RBIs are dependent on someone "else" getting on base. How you judge a hitter by that, I will never know.

A hitters job is to not make an out. Hatteberg makes less outs than anyone else on the team.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Jpup

the fact is that he can not score runs if someone else doesn't drive him in. If he is batting 6th or 7th in the order, he isn't going to score many runs. Bat him second and see what happens. RBIs are dependent on someone "else" getting on base. How you judge a hitter by that, I will never know.

A hitters job is to not make an out. Hatteberg makes less outs than anyone else on the team.

1) Phillips (all year) and Ross (the last month or so) have done a fine job at the bottom of the order.

2) Hatte is hitting .237-1-13 in 38 ABs with RISP and .071-0-1 in 14 ABs with RISP/2 outs. He's had opportunities to drive in runs. He hasn't come through.

3) I've been through this 100 times between Dunn and Hatteberg threads regarding OBP. OBP is not the end of the discussion. The bad thing about the stat is it is reliant upon other factors. Just b/c you walk doesn't mean you did your job. Especially when you are slow as molasses, b/c when you are no threat on the paths it now takes more than a single to score you.

4) "A hitters job is to not make an out." I think a hitter has more of a job than that. And as I have stated before, if we are happy with someone who's main attribute is walking, then we need to get Eddie Gaedel in here. He'd be much cheaper. Give me someone who makes things happen over someone who walks and now relies on others to make things happen anyday.

[westofyou]

That would be me. OBP is a dandy statistic but when you are on pace for a .288-9-39 season with a .400 OBP and 60 runs scored in 423 ABs, then those walks aren't doing much IMO.

Getting on base is always a good thing, and that statement doesn't mean I"m "Enamored" or "Blinded" by OB%.

Why is it that some people tend to look at wanting to avoid outs and valuing getting on base as some sort of Cabal?

Just another boogyman hiding in the equipment bag as far as I'm concerned.

[registerthis]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

1) Phillips (all year) and Ross (the last month or so) have done a fine job at the bottom of the order.

A single wouldn't score a guy from first, and it sometimes doesn't score a guy from second. "Runs scored" is almost entirely team-dependant, unless you hit a significant number of HRs. Ross has scored only 17 runs all year, and E_E, whom many consider to be having a fine season, has scored only 1 more run than Hatte. All Hatte can do is get himself on base, beyond that it's out of his control.

2) Hatte is hitting .237-1-13 in 38 ABs with RISP and .071-0-1 in 14 ABs with RISP/2 outs. He's had opportunities to drive in runs. He hasn't come through.

He's also getting on base at a .373 clip with RISP, which is better than guys like Dunn and Kearns who also have had far more opportunities.) He's never been a big run producer, but he does the next best thing--he avoids making outs while giving others a chance to drive him (and others) in.

3) I've been through this 100 times between Dunn and Hatteberg threads regarding OBP. OBP is not the end of the discussion. The bad thing about the stat is it is reliant upon other factors. Just b/c you walk doesn't mean you did your job. Especially when you are slow as molasses, b/c when you are no threat on the paths it now takes more than a single to score you.

What you're really trying to say is that Hatte should walk less and swing more--which DOES sound like a familiar criticism of another player I know. It's also a recipe to ruin what offensive skills a player like Hatte has. He's getting so many walks because the pitchers are throwing him stuff outside of the strike zone. Whenever a player is encouraged to "walk less", it means that he should be swinging more. Those swings would be made on pitches that are primarily unhittable, thus ensuring that he makes many more outs for very little return. Encouraging Hatte to be more aggressive at the plate would result in a decrease in his OBP, a decrease in the number of chances the reds as a team have to score runs, and only a very modest increase in his RBI production. That's not a trade-off I'm willing to make.

"A hitters job is to not make an out." I think a hitter has more of a job than that. And as I have stated before, if we are happy with someone who's main attribute is walking, then we need to get Eddie Gaedel in here. He'd be much cheaper. Give me someone who makes things happen over someone who walks and now relies on others to make things happen anyday.

This argument fails because it assumes that everyone should be able to hit like Williams, with power like Ruth. It makes the faulty assumption that walks can be traded for hits with little to know adverse repercussions for the player and the team. Unfortunately, that's not the case. No team can field a squad of Pujols's or Guerrero's, so each player's limitations must be recognized. Asking players to work on their overall game and improve is one thing. Asking players to trade hits for outs is quite another, and you could count on one hand the number of MLB players who could accomplish such a task successfully.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by registerthis

A single wouldn't score a guy from first, and it sometimes doesn't score a guy from second. "Runs scored" is almost entirely team-dependant, unless you hit a significant number of HRs. Ross has scored only 17 runs all year, and E_E, whom many consider to be having a fine season, has scored only 1 more run than Hatte. All Hatte can do is get himself on base, beyond that it's out of his control.



He's also getting on base at a .373 clip with RISP, which is better than guys like Dunn and Kearns who also have had far more opportunities.) He's never been a big run producer, but he does the next best thing--he avoids making outs while giving others a chance to drive him (and others) in.



What you're really trying to say is that Hatte should walk less and swing more--which DOES sound like a familiar criticism of another player I know. It's also a recipe to ruin what offensive skills a player like Hatte has. He's getting so many walks because the pitchers are throwing him stuff outside of the strike zone. Whenever a player is encouraged to "walk less", it means that he should be swinging more. Those swings would be made on pitches that are primarily unhittable, thus ensuring that he makes many more outs for very little return. Encouraging Hatte to be more aggressive at the plate would result in a decrease in his OBP, a decrease in the number of chances the reds as a team have to score runs, and only a very modest increase in his RBI production. That's not a trade-off I'm willing to make.



This argument fails because it assumes that everyone should be able to hit like Williams, with power like Ruth. It makes the faulty assumption that walks can be traded for hits with little to know adverse repercussions for the player and the team. Unfortunately, that's not the case. No team can field a squad of Pujols's or Guerrero's, so each player's limitations must be recognized. Asking players to work on their overall game and improve is one thing. Asking players to trade hits for outs is quite another, and you could count on one hand the number of MLB players who could accomplish such a task successfully.

1) Not for nothing, but I would rather have someone get a hit with RISP than walk. I couldn't care less what their OBP is. He isn't producing with RISP and my stats were in rebuttal to another post saying his RBI total is low b/c he hasn't gotten any chances.

2) I am not comparing Ted Williams, Pujols or Vlad. But he is on pace for 39 RBI and 60 runs. Pujols' grandfather could probably get those stats.

3) There is a difference btw telling someone to "walk less" and telling someone to swing at strikes. If Hatte watches two go straight down the chute and then walks with a man on 3rd, are we happy? I doubt it. If he gets 4 straight balls, fine. But he has seen more than his fair share of strikes go by.

4) If the people hitting behind Hatte aren't knocking him in since he seems to get on base everytime and yet is only on pace to score 60 runs, then maybe he should start to swing more.

[registerthis]

Yes, Hatteberg's problem is that he doesn't make enough outs. Swing away, young padwan.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Getting on base is always a good thing, and that statement doesn't mean I"m "Enamored" or "Blinded" by OB%.

Why is it that some people tend to look at wanting to avoid outs and valuing getting on base as some sort of Cabal?

Just another boogyman hiding in the equipment bag as far as I'm concerned.

I think OBP is a good thing, but it isn't the only thing. And it doesn't guarantee runs being scored, as illustrated by the Hatteberg case. I think people are putting too much weight in the stat. That's all. Like if your OBP is over .400 then you are automatically having a great year no matter what else takes place. It doesn't matter that Hatte isn't producing anything else except walks.

[westofyou]

And it doesn't guarantee runs being scored, as illustrated by the Hatteberg case.

6.48 RC/27

I'll take the white mans Randy Milligan thank you.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by registerthis

Yes, Hatteberg's problem is that he doesn't make enough outs. Swing away, young padwan.

Never said that. His walks aren't generating runs. Everyone jams OBP down your throat on RZ like it is a guarantee of a plethora of runs being scored. He isn't scoring runs. He isn't knocking in runs. He walks. If his walks aren't enabling the Reds to score more, then he may as well swing a little more. And not at pitches outside of the zone. He looks at plenty of strikes.