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09-21-2006, 07:45 PM
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Rally Onion!
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 33,214
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60's pitchers
Historians have rated pitchers like Drysdale, Koufax, Gibson, Jenkins and Marichal as some of the best pitchers in baseball history. I don't think anyone can disagree that they were outstanding but my question is, were they overrated due to the era they pitched in?
After 1963 baseball let umpires call a larger strike zone. Pitchers mounds were very high. Night baseball was almost the rule and not the exception. Several new parks came into being. After 1968, they shrank the strike zone and enforced the height of the mound. I wouldn't say these guys became ineffective but they weren't quite as good as they were before. Of course Koufax had the arm injury that made him retire so we'll never know how he would have done after 1968. Also most, if not all of these guys were not that great before 1964. They all had talent but they couldn't put it all together yet. Was their greatness due to putting it all together or did they get an extra-friendly nudge from the rules? Teams also played the game accordingly. They knew they wouldn't score a lot so they played for 1 run a lot. That had to depress run totals. Should historians treat the 60s for pitchers much like they are going to treat the 90s for sluggers? Discuss.
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09-21-2006, 07:51 PM
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breath
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: PDX
Posts: 39,335
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Re: 60's pitchers
http://baseballminutia.com/blog/2006...e-of-the-coin/
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09-21-2006, 08:14 PM
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#3 |
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Playoffs
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 6,233
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Re: 60's pitchers
Here's MLB league pitching stats, from 1903-2005 ...
Code:
MAJOR LEAGUES PITCHING STATS YEAR W L PCT G GS CG SV GF IP H R ER BB SO 1903 1099 1099 .500 2565 2228 1909 51 320 19643 19770 9908 6781 5445 7965 1904 1219 1219 .500 2817 2496 2186 42 309 21999 20358 9306 6505 5742 9303 1905 1218 1218 .500 3018 2474 1975 54 501 21981 20219 9643 6887 6272 9569 1906 1208 1208 .500 3073 2454 1910 89 547 21692 19701 8883 6408 6258 9098 1907 1205 1201 .501 3216 2465 1826 86 636 21817 19651 8716 6066 6311 8691 1908 1228 1228 .500 3477 2488 1678 108 811 22316 19246 8427 5866 6121 9110 1909 1219 1218 .500 3543 2481 1623 117 862 22198.1 19649 8807 6244 6665 9358 1910 1223 1223 .500 3714 2497 1550 129 949 22370.1 20329 9593 6883 7486 9790 1911 1218 1218 .500 3843 2474 1441 146 1032 22032 21888 11150 8245 7915 9883 1912 1219 1219 .500 3836 2461 1437 135 1010 21870 21976 11135 8184 7660 9779 1913 1213 1213 .500 4058 2466 1325 165 1134 22065.1 21030 9977 7506 7322 9459 1914 1837 1836 .500 6062 3758 2064 231 1684 33508.1 31106 14521 10823 11146 14955 1915 1833 1833 .500 6006 3731 2058 230 1661 33326 30459 14215 10744 11120 14115 1916 1227 1227 .500 4234 2494 1309 181 1178 22512.2 20311 8885 6796 7085 9525 1917 1225 1225 .500 4082 2494 1383 162 1105 22509.2 20356 8944 6705 6890 8645 1918 1006 1006 .500 3038 2032 1280 111 749 18372 17064 7379 5649 5726 5873 1919 1113 1113 .500 3534 2236 1304 98 933 20113.1 19597 8680 6854 5975 6870 1920 1228 1228 .500 3999 2468 1399 143 1060 22255 23278 10769 8552 6824 7269 1921 1226 1226 .500 4267 2458 1278 178 1184 22017 24754 11922 9857 6826 6963 1922 1231 1231 .500 4431 2478 1238 156 1238 22102 24578 12041 9978 7218 6935 1923 1226 1226 .500 4451 2466 1227 167 1232 22078 24194 11876 9791 7596 7007 1924 1224 1224 .500 4499 2462 1199 175 1254 21935 24211 11686 9856 7352 6624 1925 1224 1224 .500 4510 2457 1209 175 1249 21820 24920 12589 10500 7768 6690 1926 1222 1222 .500 4575 2468 1156 194 1308 21913.1 23516 11452 9545 7676 6815 1927 1228 1228 .500 4487 2473 1198 196 1257 22044.1 23991 11751 9843 7441 6895 1928 1227 1227 .500 4496 2462 1171 218 1285 21992 23697 11612 9806 7658 7093 1929 1221 1221 .500 4554 2458 1171 214 1288 21865.1 24648 12754 10866 8037 7038 1930 1232 1232 .500 4700 2468 1095 215 1370 21863.2 25603 13689 11679 7646 7932 1931 1227 1227 .500 4523 2472 1188 196 1280 21991.2 24037 11893 10071 7669 7907 1932 1228 1228 .500 4608 2466 1124 192 1324 22129.1 24106 12105 10267 7540 7858 1933 1216 1216 .500 4593 2452 1113 217 1333 21895.1 22966 10981 9262 7348 7440 1934 1215 1215 .500 4787 2446 1059 229 1387 21712 23968 11993 10326 7850 8429 1935 1219 1219 .500 4712 2456 1093 207 1360 21883.1 24060 12029 10299 7829 8016 1936 1228 1228 .500 4782 2476 1075 238 1401 22045 24849 12861 11082 8415 8233 1937 1225 1225 .500 4713 2477 1114 215 1360 21909.1 23768 12069 10387 8442 9006 1938 1207 1207 .500 4627 2446 1090 210 1357 21653 23290 11966 10306 8629 8342 1939 1221 1221 .500 4841 2462 1027 247 1435 21829.1 23369 11870 10343 8483 8518 1940 1229 1229 .500 4863 2472 1095 235 1377 22047.2 23003 11570 10080 8265 9056 1941 1230 1230 .500 4807 2488 1085 220 1393 22191.1 22534 11168 9595 8891 8836 1942 1214 1214 .500 4621 2448 1128 199 1321 21949.2 21170 9996 8499 8385 8334 1943 1227 1227 .500 4651 2476 1095 253 1381 22403 21451 9669 8302 8351 8562 1944 1231 1231 .500 4699 2484 1123 223 1360 22324.1 22302 10366 8733 7923 8163 1945 1218 1218 .500 4655 2460 1140 218 1320 21978.1 21980 10275 8753 8296 8051 1946 1233 1233 .500 5180 2484 1053 227 1431 22141.1 21538 9955 8514 8783 9657 1947 1232 1232 .500 5289 2486 961 290 1521 22048.2 21993 10826 9518 9209 9133 1948 1230 1230 .500 5523 2474 897 314 1577 21931.2 22219 11312 10037 9625 9021 1949 1231 1231 .500 5302 2480 979 245 1501 22034.2 22144 11422 10085 10020 8946 1950 1230 1230 .500 5246 2476 998 289 1478 21975.1 22559 12013 10641 9955 9565 1951 1235 1235 .500 5332 2478 938 276 1540 22209.2 22191 11268 9967 9258 9341 1952 1231 1231 .500 5259 2478 949 306 1528 22207.1 21267 10349 9136 8787 10394 1953 1229 1229 .500 5592 2480 864 347 1616 22038.1 22459 11426 10135 8689 10218 1954 1231 1231 .500 5589 2472 840 349 1632 22130 21908 10827 9581 9033 10215 1955 1231 1231 .500 5944 2468 748 359 1720 22022 21610 11069 9781 9048 10825 1956 1232 1232 .500 5932 2478 758 370 1720 22092 21653 11031 9734 9000 11507 1957 1230 1230 .500 6013 2470 710 391 1760 22344 21865 10636 9516 8175 11964 1958 1231 1231 .500 6025 2470 743 404 1727 22049.1 21621 10578 9458 8127 12228 1959 1234 1234 .500 5925 2476 742 379 1734 22102.2 21636 10853 9587 8184 12606 1960 1232 1232 .500 6065 2472 666 430 1806 22209 21434 10664 9417 8384 12817 1961 1423 1423 .500 6987 2860 745 501 2115 25452.1 25066 12942 11390 9897 14952 1962 1618 1618 .500 8281 3242 844 618 2398 29004.1 28521 14461 12748 10936 17567 1963 1618 1618 .500 8046 3238 865 589 2373 29098.2 27043 12780 11186 9591 18773 1964 1620 1620 .500 8381 3252 797 668 2455 29130.1 27669 13124 11592 9621 19212 1965 1619 1619 .500 8599 3246 739 678 2507 29172.2 26952 12946 11345 10036 19283 1966 1613 1613 .500 8505 3230 736 667 2494 29042 27207 12900 11363 9331 18805 1967 1617 1617 .500 8429 3240 782 647 2458 29180.2 26464 12210 10711 9665 19413 1968 1619 1619 .500 8040 3250 897 597 2353 29236 25710 11109 9687 9156 19143 1969 1943 1943 .500 10117 3892 982 745 2910 34898 32581 15850 14005 13429 22473 1970 1943 1943 .500 10356 3888 852 878 3036 34860.2 33555 16880 15051 13727 22374 1971 1936 1936 .500 9661 3876 1083 689 2793 34768 32547 15073 13400 12536 20956 1972 1858 1858 .500 9127 3718 1009 732 2709 33452 30434 13706 12133 11727 20718 1973 1942 1942 .500 9209 3886 1061 819 2825 34873 34010 16376 14518 13100 20358 1974 1940 1940 .500 9330 3890 1089 517 2801 34945.1 33969 16046 14083 12963 19495 1975 1933 1933 .500 9270 3868 1052 669 2816 34730 33863 16295 14316 13402 19280 1976 1939 1939 .500 9364 3878 1039 683 2839 34928.2 33598 15492 13637 12391 18745 1977 2103 2103 .500 10621 4206 907 845 3299 37738.1 38037 18803 16768 13757 21722 1978 2102 2102 .500 10095 4204 1034 804 3170 37500.1 36508 17251 15362 13566 20058 1979 2096 2096 .500 10573 4196 913 840 3283 37478 37911 18713 16669 13601 20035 1980 2101 2101 .500 10796 4210 856 902 3354 37861 38144 18053 16162 13190 20212 1981 1389 1389 .500 7439 2788 510 605 2278 25095.1 24157 11147 9992 8868 13237 1982 2106 2106 .500 11040 4214 734 932 3480 37878.1 37651 18110 16258 13302 21221 1983 2106 2106 .500 10978 4218 745 977 3473 37742 37443 18170 16241 13518 21716 1984 2104 2104 .500 11177 4210 632 993 3578 37704.2 37381 17921 15965 13320 22500 1985 2101 2101 .500 11504 4206 627 977 3579 37658.2 36778 18216 16292 13838 22451 1986 2102 2102 .500 11760 4206 579 1004 3627 37674.1 36880 18545 16629 14227 24706 1987 2105 2105 .500 12157 4210 561 971 3649 37574.2 37895 19883 17925 14389 25099 1988 2098 2098 .500 11531 4200 622 1049 3578 37667.2 36244 17380 15626 12984 23355 1989 2103 2103 .500 12111 4212 483 1069 3729 37715 36293 17405 15551 13528 23650 1990 2105 2105 .500 12694 4210 429 1113 3781 37563.2 36817 17919 16116 13852 23853 1991 2104 2104 .500 13171 4208 366 1132 3842 37769.2 36558 18127 16410 13984 24390 1992 2106 2106 .500 13251 4212 419 1109 3793 37829.2 36544 17341 15744 13682 23538 1993 2268 2268 .500 14839 4538 371 1192 4167 40507 41088 20864 18861 15110 26310 1994 1599 1599 .500 10643 3200 255 777 2945 28586.1 29743 15752 14330 11131 19766 1995 2016 2016 .500 13915 4034 275 1006 3759 36032 36975 19554 17822 14240 25425 1996 2266 2266 .500 15594 4534 290 1116 4244 40560.2 42320 22831 20780 16093 29308 1997 2266 2266 .500 15857 4532 266 1139 4266 40454 41471 21604 19730 15666 29937 1998 2430 2430 .500 16827 4864 302 1265 4559 43434.2 44489 23268 21387 16447 31893 1999 2428 2426 .500 17276 4856 236 1217 4620 43210 45327 24691 22606 17891 31119 2000 2428 2428 .500 17220 4858 234 1178 4624 43244.1 45246 24971 22918 18238 31356 2001 2428 2428 .500 17624 4858 199 1210 4659 43287.1 43879 23199 21247 15806 32404 2002 2425 2425 .500 17611 4852 214 1224 4638 43269 43272 22408 20570 16246 31394 2003 2429 2429 .500 17817 4860 209 1199 4651 43335 44057 22978 21186 15889 30801 2004 2428 2428 .500 18272 4856 150 1230 4706 43394 44522 23376 21527 16222 31828 2005 2430 2430 .500 18032 4862 189 1254 4673 43232.1 43991 22325 20612 15207 30644 TOT 162759 162751 .500 801910 327038 99173 53467 227712 2923461 2911860 1434345 1243282 1059074 1567912 YEAR ERA HR H/9 BR/9 SO/9 BB/9 SO/BB SHO WP IBB HBP BFP BK 1903 3.11 334 9.06 11.90 3.65 2.49 1.46 167 446 0 754 81174 12 1904 2.66 330 8.33 11.01 3.81 2.35 1.62 249 508 0 811 90967 42 1905 2.82 328 8.28 11.19 3.92 2.57 1.53 223 527 0 828 58332 22 1906 2.66 257 8.17 11.09 3.77 2.60 1.45 275 461 0 774 55953 29 1907 2.50 238 8.11 11.03 3.59 2.60 1.38 282 473 0 785 88547 23 1908 2.37 267 7.76 10.54 3.67 2.47 1.49 290 477 0 768 89089 25 1909 2.53 262 7.97 10.98 3.79 2.70 1.40 271 568 0 778 89226 39 1910 2.77 359 8.18 11.51 3.94 3.01 1.31 234 544 0 805 90221 33 1911 3.37 514 8.94 12.52 4.04 3.23 1.25 168 539 0 836 91841 49 1912 3.37 442 9.04 12.49 4.02 3.15 1.28 160 559 0 718 91855 45 1913 3.06 472 8.58 11.85 3.86 2.99 1.29 198 529 0 690 91793 51 1914 2.91 705 8.35 11.62 4.02 2.99 1.34 341 799 0 1003 134289 50 1915 2.90 625 8.23 11.50 3.81 3.00 1.27 348 730 0 1009 129250 69 1916 2.72 381 8.12 11.20 3.81 2.83 1.34 236 500 0 629 91095 51 1917 2.68 334 8.14 11.12 3.46 2.75 1.25 248 412 0 575 91661 38 1918 2.77 234 8.36 11.39 2.88 2.81 1.03 199 299 0 458 75635 23 1919 3.07 446 8.77 11.68 3.07 2.67 1.15 189 374 0 529 82870 43 1920 3.46 629 9.41 12.39 2.94 2.76 1.07 186 408 0 546 93899 52 1921 4.03 937 10.12 13.14 2.85 2.79 1.02 120 360 0 564 95612 50 1922 4.06 1054 10.01 13.20 2.82 2.94 0.96 146 382 0 609 96065 55 1923 3.99 981 9.86 13.20 2.86 3.10 0.92 127 359 0 599 96258 40 1924 4.04 896 9.93 13.18 2.72 3.02 0.90 137 338 0 548 95693 53 1925 4.33 1168 10.28 13.69 2.76 3.20 0.86 106 348 0 501 96251 35 1926 3.92 863 9.66 13.01 2.80 3.15 0.89 134 309 0 479 95079 39 1927 4.02 922 9.79 13.03 2.82 3.04 0.93 127 337 0 484 95676 43 1928 4.01 1095 9.70 13.02 2.90 3.13 0.93 132 286 0 460 96571 29 1929 4.47 1349 10.15 13.62 2.90 3.31 0.88 121 355 0 404 96278 44 1930 4.81 1564 10.54 13.85 3.27 3.15 1.04 91 368 0 401 97223 36 1931 4.12 1069 9.84 13.13 3.24 3.14 1.03 134 347 0 370 96196 42 1932 4.18 1357 9.80 13.02 3.20 3.07 1.04 119 368 0 367 96601 41 1933 3.81 1067 9.44 12.61 3.06 3.02 1.01 166 392 0 353 94530 35 1934 4.28 1344 9.94 13.33 3.49 3.25 1.07 136 427 0 341 95515 41 1935 4.24 1326 9.90 13.27 3.30 3.22 1.02 149 419 0 381 96186 37 1936 4.52 1363 10.14 13.75 3.36 3.44 0.98 118 557 0 412 97858 41 1937 4.27 1430 9.76 13.36 3.70 3.47 1.07 134 393 0 318 96118 41 1938 4.28 1474 9.68 13.41 3.47 3.59 0.97 124 410 0 348 95336 46 1939 4.26 1443 9.63 13.28 3.51 3.50 1.00 127 445 0 354 95925 49 1940 4.11 1572 9.39 12.91 3.70 3.37 1.10 140 457 0 354 95912 52 1941 3.89 1333 9.14 12.87 3.58 3.61 0.99 162 481 0 310 96484 33 1942 3.48 1070 8.68 12.26 3.42 3.44 0.99 178 389 0 337 93929 44 1943 3.34 905 8.62 12.10 3.44 3.35 1.03 196 354 0 328 94992 56 1944 3.52 1034 8.99 12.32 3.29 3.19 1.03 177 388 0 340 95629 44 1945 3.58 1001 9.00 12.54 3.30 3.40 0.97 186 358 0 355 94745 51 1946 3.46 1214 8.75 12.45 3.93 3.57 1.10 199 347 0 314 94956 36 1947 3.89 1564 8.98 12.86 3.73 3.76 0.99 176 390 0 306 94931 51 1948 4.12 1556 9.12 13.21 3.70 3.95 0.94 143 433 0 337 95453 47 1949 4.12 1699 9.04 13.29 3.65 4.09 0.89 172 454 0 370 95844 56 1950 4.36 2073 9.24 13.50 3.92 4.08 0.96 139 432 0 437 96364 123 1951 4.04 1865 8.99 12.93 3.79 3.75 1.01 166 442 0 449 96005 65 1952 3.70 1701 8.62 12.38 4.21 3.56 1.18 180 405 0 483 94809 40 1953 4.14 2076 9.17 12.92 4.17 3.55 1.18 156 464 0 487 95420 50 1954 3.90 1937 8.91 12.76 4.15 3.67 1.13 166 402 0 441 95541 45 1955 4.00 2224 8.83 12.73 4.42 3.70 1.20 159 473 736 498 95020 36 1956 3.97 2294 8.82 12.68 4.69 3.67 1.28 127 492 783 481 95233 43 1957 3.83 2202 8.81 12.31 4.82 3.29 1.46 139 480 740 511 95395 46 1958 3.86 2240 8.83 12.35 4.99 3.32 1.50 132 526 680 499 94149 70 1959 3.90 2250 8.81 12.34 5.13 3.33 1.54 158 557 707 496 94722 60 1960 3.82 2128 8.69 12.28 5.19 3.40 1.53 140 604 730 488 94776 55 1961 4.03 2730 8.86 12.57 5.29 3.50 1.51 154 780 732 573 109572 63 1962 3.96 3001 8.85 12.46 5.45 3.39 1.61 168 949 818 709 124544 92 1963 3.46 2704 8.36 11.55 5.81 2.97 1.96 234 914 933 714 122356 194 1964 3.58 2762 8.55 11.74 5.94 2.97 2.00 221 979 1015 694 122993 65 1965 3.50 2688 8.31 11.63 5.95 3.10 1.92 191 1046 1130 720 122763 72 1966 3.52 2743 8.43 11.53 5.83 2.89 2.02 194 1039 1088 682 121688 96 1967 3.30 2299 8.16 11.37 5.99 2.98 2.01 226 985 1295 751 121848 101 1968 2.98 1995 7.91 10.97 5.89 2.82 2.09 279 1007 1223 778 120823 83 1969 3.61 3119 8.40 12.09 5.80 3.46 1.67 242 1284 1436 882 148192 131 1970 3.89 3429 8.66 12.42 5.78 3.54 1.63 188 1249 1464 825 149324 128 1971 3.47 2863 8.43 11.88 5.42 3.25 1.67 265 1115 1396 821 146700 97 1972 3.26 2534 8.19 11.55 5.57 3.16 1.77 295 1069 1378 751 139958 92 1973 3.75 3102 8.78 12.35 5.25 3.38 1.55 236 1199 1356 755 148789 95 1974 3.63 2649 8.75 12.29 5.02 3.34 1.50 227 1086 1353 774 148851 186 1975 3.71 2698 8.78 12.45 5.00 3.47 1.44 223 1158 1338 761 148613 204 1976 3.51 2235 8.66 12.03 4.83 3.19 1.51 261 1047 1156 684 147598 176 1977 4.00 3644 9.07 12.54 5.18 3.28 1.58 176 1166 1297 791 161545 235 1978 3.69 2956 8.76 12.20 4.81 3.26 1.48 238 1054 1338 772 159192 273 1979 4.00 3433 9.10 12.55 4.81 3.27 1.47 175 1146 1366 754 160378 166 1980 3.84 3087 9.07 12.36 4.80 3.14 1.53 189 1031 1435 657 161210 257 1981 3.58 1781 8.66 12.01 4.75 3.18 1.49 135 714 895 464 105892 181 1982 3.86 3379 8.95 12.27 5.04 3.16 1.60 161 1091 1319 677 161104 256 1983 3.87 3301 8.93 12.32 5.18 3.22 1.61 180 1076 1379 717 160615 266 1984 3.81 3258 8.92 12.26 5.37 3.18 1.69 151 1129 1270 668 160566 283 1985 3.89 3602 8.79 12.26 5.37 3.31 1.62 163 1141 1337 699 160320 227 1986 3.97 3813 8.81 12.40 5.90 3.40 1.74 139 1323 1289 812 160858 289 1987 4.29 4458 9.08 12.72 6.01 3.45 1.74 138 1333 1287 842 161922 356 1988 3.73 3180 8.66 11.98 5.58 3.10 1.80 182 1262 1367 918 159380 924 1989 3.71 3083 8.66 12.08 5.64 3.23 1.75 152 1286 1446 801 160033 407 1990 3.86 3317 8.82 12.35 5.72 3.32 1.72 140 1355 1384 861 160316 288 1991 3.91 3383 8.71 12.26 5.81 3.33 1.74 107 1390 1229 905 160746 241 1992 3.75 3038 8.69 12.18 5.60 3.26 1.72 146 1296 1315 980 160545 219 1993 4.19 4030 9.13 12.75 5.85 3.36 1.74 99 1473 1477 1200 174564 298 1994 4.51 3306 9.36 13.14 6.22 3.50 1.78 69 1162 1008 876 124483 174 1995 4.45 4081 9.24 13.10 6.35 3.56 1.79 88 1414 1105 1219 156703 199 1996 4.61 4962 9.39 13.27 6.50 3.57 1.82 84 1553 1343 1404 177261 197 1997 4.39 4640 9.23 13.03 6.66 3.49 1.91 89 1482 1169 1449 175541 188 1998 4.43 5064 9.22 12.95 6.61 3.41 1.94 101 1605 1062 1583 188225 205 1999 4.71 5528 9.44 13.50 6.48 3.73 1.74 64 1632 1105 1578 189692 177 2000 4.77 5693 9.42 13.54 6.53 3.80 1.72 72 1518 1208 1572 190261 161 2001 4.42 5458 9.12 12.80 6.74 3.29 2.05 74 1484 1384 1890 186976 151 2002 4.28 5059 9.00 12.74 6.53 3.38 1.93 87 1494 1452 1746 186615 160 2003 4.40 5207 9.15 12.83 6.40 3.30 1.94 72 1546 1316 1849 187449 158 2004 4.46 5451 9.23 12.98 6.60 3.36 1.96 69 1478 1381 1850 188539 157 2005 4.29 5017 9.16 12.70 6.38 3.17 2.02 63 1439 1216 1797 186292 161 TOT 3.83 225557 8.96 12.45 4.83 3.26 1.48 17310 80660 60666 74415 12414812 11725
For most fans, it's difficult to properly put players from each era in a proper context to compare them. For example, Hack Wilson's 191 RBI in 1930 is held in pretty high regard, and it'd be major news if a hitter approached or broke that record, but it's rarely mentioned that 1930 may have been the greatest single season for offense in baseball history. Similarly, pitchers from the 1960s are held in high regard because of their miniscule ERAs, but rarely is it mentioned that league ERAs during that time were in the low to mid 3s, and they even sunk as low as 2.98 in 1968. Toss up a 3.25 ERA today, and fans may put your name in contention for a Cy Young Award. Toss up a 3.25 ERA in 1968, and you were a below average pitcher. Of those pitchers listed by Chip, none of them makes my own Top 10, and Gibson is the highest at 14th. Two caveats that I should mention, however, is that I'm including Negro Leaguers and have Satchel Paige ranked ahead of Gibson, and I also gave Bob Feller WWII credit and have him ahead of Gibson. Sandy Koufax had four truly legendary seasons and put together a great peak, but he did pitch in Dodger Stadium during the 1960s, and he just doesn't have the career value that was amassed by many other legendary pitchers. Marichal and Jenkins are definite Hall of Famers, but I believe they're only middle tier Hall of Famers. Drysdale is a low tier Hall of Famer and people can make a case that he doesn't belong, but I don't have much of a problem with him being in the Hall of Fame.
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Barry Larkin - HOF, 2012 Put an end to the Lost Decade. Last edited by Cyclone792; 09-21-2006 at 08:38 PM. |
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09-22-2006, 02:01 PM
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#4 |
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Plays The Right Way
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: 796.357
Posts: 1,676
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Re: 60's pitchers
This is a bit off the subject, but how do we have more wins than losses in 1907 and 1909?
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09-22-2006, 04:58 PM
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#5 |
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Posting in Dynarama
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Boston
Posts: 26,668
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Re: 60's pitchers
A byproduct of tiny ERAs in leagues where scoring is scarce is that starting pitchers also log a lot more innings (because they can stay in the game with less than their best stuff and not get their heads kicked in). Combine big innings totals (and the counting that come with them) with tiny ERAs and you've got the makings of what looks like an era of supermen on the mound.
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Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong I'm witchcrafting everybody. |
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09-22-2006, 05:07 PM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2000
Location: The Bush Leagues
Posts: 8,420
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Re: 60's pitchers
Quote:
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The widow is gathering nettles for her children's dinner; a perfumed seigneur, delicately lounging in the Oeil de Boeuf, hath an alchemy whereby he will extract the third nettle and call it rent. ~ Carlyle |
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09-22-2006, 05:07 PM
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#7 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 3,112
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Re: 60's pitchers
Quote:
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redsrule2500   Go Reds!  Baseball Bliss  “I’m a normal guy blessed with the ability to hit a baseball.” - Sean Casey |
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09-22-2006, 05:11 PM
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#8 | |
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breath
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: PDX
Posts: 39,335
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Re: 60's pitchers
Quote:
1203-1203 by my count 1907 STANDINGS Code:
AMERICAN LEAGUE TEAM W L PCT GB Tigers 92 58 .613 - A's 88 57 .607 1.5 White Sox 87 64 .576 5.5 Indians 85 67 .559 8 Yankees 70 78 .473 21 Browns 69 83 .454 24 Red Sox 59 90 .396 32.5 Senators 49 102 .325 43.5 NATIONAL LEAGUE TEAM W L PCT GB Cubs 107 45 .704 - Pirates 91 63 .591 17 Phillies 83 64 .565 21.5 Giants 82 71 .536 25.5 Dodgers 65 83 .439 40 Reds 66 87 .431 41.5 Braves 58 90 .392 47 Cardinals 52 101 .340 55.5 |
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09-23-2006, 07:46 AM
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#9 |
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Big Red Machine
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Out Wayne
Posts: 22,365
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Re: 60's pitchers
The stats and reputations of Koufax, Gibson, Marichal, Drysdale and Jenkins were all helped by the era in which they pitched, but they were great pitchers nonetheless. Drysadle is the only one in that bunch whose HOF election I would question (Bill James finally voted "no" but I'd still vote "yes" on inducting the "Big D").
Drysdale was one of the NL's best pitchers before the 1963-68 era, and won his only Cy Young award in 1962, when he was a 25 game winner. Almost all of Marichal's great years did come between 1963 and 1968, but he did lead the NL in ERA and win 21 games in 1969. Gibson remained effective after the mound was raised in 1969, winning 20 games with a 2.18 ERA in 1969 and winning his second Cy Young award in 1970, when he won 23 games. Jenkins had five of his seven 20+ win seasons after 1968, so he really doesn't fit in this group. Koufax is the only one of the group who pretty much had all his great seasons in the 1963-68 era, although he did set a league record in 1961 with 269 Ks while winning 18 games and was the league ERA leader in 1962 in an injury shortened 14 win season, but during 1963-66 he outpitched everybody. In the 2001 edition of his new "Historical Baseball Abstract" Bill James ranked Gibson 8th, Koufax 10th, Marichal 21st, Jenkins 23rd and Drysdale 33rd. I expect their rankings would drop if James updated the book to take into account the effectiveness of several active pitchers since then, as he had Roger Clemens 11th, Greg Maddux 14th, Pedro Martinez 29th and Randy Johnson 49th. Those four guys would surely be ranked higher now.
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