Arroyo and Harang

[Kc61]

This thread wasn't about abusing pitchers. (I wonder what Bob Gibson would think of that phrase.) Any true Reds fan who has been paying attention knows that the Reds have generally been challenged in the pitching department. In 2004 and 2005, the pitching was just unacceptable.

This year, the team has two starters that any team would want. That's an exciting development. If they concentrate their efforts on getting two more, this team will be a force.

The Reds have shown over the years that you can acquire offense fairly easily. Ron Gant, Greg Vaughn, Kevin Mitchell, Dave Parker, even Rich Aurilia were picked up pretty cheaply and provided much offense. And the Reds are good at developing young hitters, always have been.

Top pitching is much harder and I'm very happy the Reds finally are showing something in that department.

So the thread was intended to congratulate these two pitchers for a terrific year. Now you can continue debating pitching abuse.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by Kc61

This thread wasn't about abusing pitchers. (I wonder what Bob Gibson would think of that phrase.) Any true Reds fan who has been paying attention knows that the Reds have generally been challenged in the pitching department. In 2004 and 2005, the pitching was just unacceptable.

This year, the team has two starters that any team would want. That's an exciting development. If they concentrate their efforts on getting two more, this team will be a force.

The Reds have shown over the years that you can acquire offense fairly easily. Ron Gant, Greg Vaughn, Kevin Mitchell, Dave Parker, even Rich Aurilia were picked up pretty cheaply and provided much offense. And the Reds are good at developing young hitters, always have been.

Top pitching is much harder and I'm very happy the Reds finally are showing something in that department.

So the thread was intended to congratulate these two pitchers for a terrific year. Now you can continue debating pitching abuse.

You invoked the issue.

[RedFanAlways1966]

This long-suffering REDS fan liked having pitchers like Harang & Arroyo this year.

Abuse? Nah. Harang avg. 106 pitches per start. Arroyo avg. 110 pitches per start entering tonight. ML starters should be able to go 110 pitches each start. Harang avg. the same pitches/start in 2005 as well. Looking at their stats in the month of September shows that they are not worn out:

* Harang: 47.0 IP, 42 H, 20 ER, 41 K, 4 BB, 0.98 WHIP, 3.83 ERA.
* Arroyo: 44.1 IP, 26 H, 11 ER, 34 K, 14 BB, 0.90 WHIP, 2.23 ERA.

120 pitches or more this year for starters? Happened 8 times (4X Harang ; 3X Arroyo). Most pitches in a start this year was 135 by Harang in his last start before the ASB (got an extra day of rest before his next start).

[Falls City Beer]

The pitcher abuse issue is like most defensive issues: unverifiable either way.

What IS verifiable is that they threw a ton of pitches, two of some of the highest in all of baseball. Also, what is true is that both pitchers suffered a terrible, terrible stretch of ineffectiveness in July and August.

Cause and effect? I don't know. No abuse at all, par for the course management of starters' arms? Not sure.

But no certainty either way, that's for sure.

But it's fairly smart to err on the side of caution with the two most important commodities this team has had in a decade.

[Kc61]

To protect these guys the Reds simply need a solid, deep bullpen. They haven't had one all year. I am a little concerned that neither Schoenweis nor Weathers has been re-signed. Can you imagine the current bullpen without them?

Right now, I have some confidence in Bray and Coffey, much confidence in Stormy and SS, and that is basically it.

It took workhorse type pitchers like Harang and Arroyo to succeed with a sub-par bullpen.

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by oneupper

Wilson not coming back...contract over.

Don't bet on it.

[VR]

Pretty safe (and sad) to say the current pitching staff is the best they've had in a long time.

[GAC]

Originally Posted by VR

Pretty safe (and sad) to say the current pitching staff is the best they've had in a long time.

That is still not saying much though. After Harang and Arroyo, what have we got?

[VR]

Originally Posted by GAC

That is still not saying much though. After Harang and Arroyo, what have we got?

Prayer

[RedsBaron]

At the moment Harang is tied for the NL lead with 16 wins, but both Brandon Webb and Derek Lowe, who also have 16 wins, are listed as starting pitchers today. I hope neither Webb nor Lowe pick up a 17th win today, so that Harang can finish the season tied for the league lead in wins.
Harang appears to have locked up the NL strikeout title and Arroyo has the NL innings pitched title. Harang and Arroyo are the Reds best one-two starting pitching combo since Rijo and Browning were in their prime.

[VR]

Originally Posted by RedsBaron

At the moment Harang is tied for the NL lead with 16 wins, but both Brandon Webb and Derek Lowe, who also have 16 wins, are listed as starting pitchers today. I hope neither Webb nor Lowe pick up a 17th win today, so that Harang can finish the season tied for the league lead in wins.
Harang appears to have locked up the NL strikeout title and Arroyo has the NL innings pitched title. Harang and Arroyo are the Reds best one-two starting pitching combo since Rijo and Browning were in their prime.

Smoltz is 10 back...starts today.

[mbgrayson]

I think serious consideration should be given to Aaron Harang for the Cy Young award.

He led the National League in strikeouts. He tied for the league lead in wins. He is 11th in ERA. He had a great K/BB ratio: 216/56.

These feats were accomplished while pitching in HR friendly Great American Ball Park, for a team that finished under .500, and had a weak overall team defense.

Think ball park doesn't matter? Look at Harang's Home/Road splits:

Home: Innings 113, ERA 4.61, HR allowed=20
Road: Innings 121, ERA 2.98, HR allowed=8

If Harang pitched in a less HR friendly park, he would be the Cy Young favorite. Most of the other Cy Young favorites were better in ERA in their home park. Carpenter had a 1.81 ERA at home, and only 4.70 on the road. Arroyo pitched better in Cincinnati (2.60 vs 4.00). Smoltz was far better in Atlanta: 2.92 vs. 4.91. Glavine was much better at Shea: 2.88 vs. 4.72.

Zambrano was hurt somewhat by Wrigley, and Chris Young inexplicably pitched worse in San Diego than on the road.

The point is simply this. If we neutralize ball park factor, I think Aaron Harang is one of the best, if not the best, pitcher in the National League.

[Heath]

The one thing I never noticed this year, was that Arroyo didn't really get de-railed with the so-called "Second Time Around The League Bashing". I am interested in how he responds/starts out next year.

[klw]

Arroyo and Harang ended the year 1, 2 in pitches thrown. There is a link in the RedsLive thread about this http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51595.
Most of the same names come up in the top ten in this category over the past 7 years. A quick review notes that with a few exceptions, ex Ryan Dempster, this doesn't seem to correlate with arm injury in the years ahead.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/...hand=a&pos=all

[RedsBaron]

Originally Posted by mbgrayson

I think serious consideration should be given to Aaron Harang for the Cy Young award.

He led the National League in strikeouts. He tied for the league lead in wins. He is 11th in ERA. He had a great K/BB ratio: 216/56.

These feats were accomplished while pitching in HR friendly Great American Ball Park, for a team that finished under .500, and had a weak overall team defense.

Think ball park doesn't matter? Look at Harang's Home/Road splits:

Home: Innings 113, ERA 4.61, HR allowed=20
Road: Innings 121, ERA 2.98, HR allowed=8

If Harang pitched in a less HR friendly park, he would be the Cy Young favorite. Most of the other Cy Young favorites were better in ERA in their home park. Carpenter had a 1.81 ERA at home, and only 4.70 on the road. Arroyo pitched better in Cincinnati (2.60 vs 4.00). Smoltz was far better in Atlanta: 2.92 vs. 4.91. Glavine was much better at Shea: 2.88 vs. 4.72.

Zambrano was hurt somewhat by Wrigley, and Chris Young inexplicably pitched worse in San Diego than on the road.

The point is simply this. If we neutralize ball park factor, I think Aaron Harang is one of the best, if not the best, pitcher in the National League.

Good post. Harang didn't have the best supporting cast either. The Reds defense was shaky at best, the offense was inconsistent, and the bullpen was generally poor.