Arroyo and Harang - RedsZone.com - Cincinnati Reds Fans' Home for Baseball Discussion

Kc61 · 09-29-2006, 10:38 PM

I can't remember the Reds having two starters of this caliber. They both had all-star years. To me, they are the co-MVPs of the team by any measure. The team ERA last year was 5.15, it is dramatically better this year, largely due to these two.

Old fashioned pitchers, don't need a reliever in the sixth inning. Harang leading the NL in strikeouts. Both guys with over 200 innings -- which I view as a big positive (I know others disagree).

If the Reds had one more starter like Arroyo/Harang they would have won the Central this year. If they get two more to go with them, they will be a very serious team.

Ravenlord · 09-29-2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kc61

Both guys with over 200 innings -- which I view as a big positive (I know others disagree).

who on Earth would disagree with that?

Kc61 · 09-29-2006, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenlord

who on Earth would disagree with that?

People who think Arroyo and Harang are overused.

Falls City Beer · 09-29-2006, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kc61

People who think Arroyo and Harang are overused.

I don't think you fully understand what pitcher abuse is. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but pitcher abuse has next to nothing to do, fundamentally, with innings pitched.

Cooper · 09-29-2006, 11:32 PM

Pitcher abuse has some thing to do with innings pitched --i know pitch count is the end all now, but the total number of innings pitched ahould be part of the equation: it takes effort to get 3 outs in an inning, there's extra effort in warming up for between innings, etc....it's like saying runners who run a marathon just show up and run without factoring the need to train and stretch --those things take effort....you can manage the effort (pitch count),but you need to factor in any kinds of info you can get your hands on. Innings pitched fills in the gaps. FCB, I don't think you took into account all that goes into evaluating use.

westofyou · 09-30-2006, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I don't think you fully understand what pitcher abuse is. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but pitcher abuse has next to nothing to do, fundamentally, with innings pitched.

Tell that to Billy Martin.

reds44 · 09-30-2006, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I don't think you fully understand what pitcher abuse is. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but pitcher abuse has next to nothing to do, fundamentally, with innings pitched.

Pitches thrown.

Doc. Scott · 09-30-2006, 02:08 AM

And I haven't seen too many people worrying about either pitcher. Scrawny Bronson Arroyo was leading baseball in innings pitched, and Harang is surely near the top of the league in Pitcher Abuse Points (tm BPro).

BCubb2003 · 09-30-2006, 02:29 AM

It stands to reason that the best pitchers are going to pitch the longest. Some of the really good, really young ones flame out, like Pryor and Wood. Arroyo and Harang both slumped a little, but it doesn't seem like they're suffering now. Maybe we're just not used to having a couple of starters who can go that deep into games.

RedsBaron · 09-30-2006, 07:06 AM

Pitcher abuse is primarily a factor of pitches thrown in a game. Studies have shown that the potential risk of serious damage to a pitcher's arm greatly increases after 120 pitches in a game. A pitcher may rack up 200-240 innings a season without undue risk if his pitch count per game is held to the range of 100-120. His risk of injury can actually be greater if he pitches fewer innings but in the games he does pitch he has a pitch count of 125-140.
There is a good discussion of this concept at pages 866-867 in "The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract" (it is in a brief article discussing Don Sutton and the advent of the five man rotation). Keith Woolner also wrote a good article about this issue, entitled "Five Starters Or Four," which is found at pages 74-94 in "Baseball Between The Numbers."
This isn't to say that some pitchers cannot pitch many more innings, with much higher pitch counts, without evident ill effects. They are extremely rare though under present playing conditions.

Tony Cloninger · 09-30-2006, 08:43 AM

Case in point of a pitcher who cannot throw more than 100 pitches per start....or barely throw 100 is Eric Milton.

I have no problem with 200-240 IP......if it is an effective IP....not just IP for the sake of it. The so-called "innings eater" who relaly just sucks as a pitcher.

Effective innings eaters that eliminate the need for crappy midle relievers are gold.

Hopefully next year though the need for Harang and Arroyo to throw more than 120 pitches in a game will be eliminated by either better pitch eficiency (which in the case of harang is doable) or better bullpen guys to go in the 8th.

Falls City Beer · 09-30-2006, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westofyou

Tell that to Billy Martin.

Innings pitched tells part of the ends, but not the means. Sure, there's a relationship between the two, but not a necessary one.

Strikes Out Looking · 09-30-2006, 10:22 AM

I love Harang and Arroyo. I just wish the Reds had a couple more starting pitchers with their attitude and game, as well as a few more outfielders that had it as well.

max venable · 09-30-2006, 12:50 PM

Next year we'll get Claussen and Wilson back....

oneupper · 09-30-2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max venable

Next year we'll get Claussen and Wilson back....

Wilson not coming back...contract over.

09-29-2006, 10:38 PM	#1
Kc61 Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 10,828	Arroyo and Harang I can't remember the Reds having two starters of this caliber. They both had all-star years. To me, they are the co-MVPs of the team by any measure. The team ERA last year was 5.15, it is dramatically better this year, largely due to these two. Old fashioned pitchers, don't need a reliever in the sixth inning. Harang leading the NL in strikeouts. Both guys with over 200 innings -- which I view as a big positive (I know others disagree). If the Reds had one more starter like Arroyo/Harang they would have won the Central this year. If they get two more to go with them, they will be a very serious team.

09-29-2006, 11:32 PM	#5
Cooper Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Richmond, Indiana Posts: 1,588	Re: Arroyo and Harang Pitcher abuse has some thing to do with innings pitched --i know pitch count is the end all now, but the total number of innings pitched ahould be part of the equation: it takes effort to get 3 outs in an inning, there's extra effort in warming up for between innings, etc....it's like saying runners who run a marathon just show up and run without factoring the need to train and stretch --those things take effort....you can manage the effort (pitch count),but you need to factor in any kinds of info you can get your hands on. Innings pitched fills in the gaps. FCB, I don't think you took into account all that goes into evaluating use.

09-30-2006, 02:08 AM	#8
Doc. Scott Lover of Trivialities Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Portland, OR (West Chester, OH) Posts: 6,066	Re: Arroyo and Harang And I haven't seen too many people worrying about either pitcher. Scrawny Bronson Arroyo was leading baseball in innings pitched, and Harang is surely near the top of the league in Pitcher Abuse Points (tm BPro).

09-30-2006, 02:29 AM	#9
BCubb2003 Haunted by walks Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Syracuse Posts: 6,301	Re: Arroyo and Harang It stands to reason that the best pitchers are going to pitch the longest. Some of the really good, really young ones flame out, like Pryor and Wood. Arroyo and Harang both slumped a little, but it doesn't seem like they're suffering now. Maybe we're just not used to having a couple of starters who can go that deep into games.

09-30-2006, 07:06 AM	#10
RedsBaron Big Red Machine Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Out Wayne Posts: 22,366	Re: Arroyo and Harang Pitcher abuse is primarily a factor of pitches thrown in a game. Studies have shown that the potential risk of serious damage to a pitcher's arm greatly increases after 120 pitches in a game. A pitcher may rack up 200-240 innings a season without undue risk if his pitch count per game is held to the range of 100-120. His risk of injury can actually be greater if he pitches fewer innings but in the games he does pitch he has a pitch count of 125-140. There is a good discussion of this concept at pages 866-867 in "The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract" (it is in a brief article discussing Don Sutton and the advent of the five man rotation). Keith Woolner also wrote a good article about this issue, entitled "Five Starters Or Four," which is found at pages 74-94 in "Baseball Between The Numbers." This isn't to say that some pitchers cannot pitch many more innings, with much higher pitch counts, without evident ill effects. They are extremely rare though under present playing conditions. __________________ "Hey...Dad. Wanna Have A Catch?" Kevin Costner in "Field Of Dreams."

09-30-2006, 08:43 AM	#11
Tony Cloninger Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 5,098	Re: Arroyo and Harang Case in point of a pitcher who cannot throw more than 100 pitches per start....or barely throw 100 is Eric Milton. I have no problem with 200-240 IP......if it is an effective IP....not just IP for the sake of it. The so-called "innings eater" who relaly just sucks as a pitcher. Effective innings eaters that eliminate the need for crappy midle relievers are gold. Hopefully next year though the need for Harang and Arroyo to throw more than 120 pitches in a game will be eliminated by either better pitch eficiency (which in the case of harang is doable) or better bullpen guys to go in the 8th.

09-30-2006, 10:22 AM	#13
Strikes Out Looking Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 2,266	Re: Arroyo and Harang I love Harang and Arroyo. I just wish the Reds had a couple more starting pitchers with their attitude and game, as well as a few more outfielders that had it as well. __________________ The Future Is Now!

09-30-2006, 12:50 PM	#14
max venable Bunn-O-matic Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Sugarcreek, Ohio Posts: 2,698	Re: Arroyo and Harang Next year we'll get Claussen and Wilson back.... __________________ For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism.

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