Thursday playoff thread (NLCS game 1)

[blumj]

Originally Posted by flyer85

where the heck did Weaver find that fastball. Hitting 93-94

Everyone's got a little something extra in these playoffs.

[Roy Tucker]

So what did Dave Duncan do/say to Jeff Weaver to get him to pull a Pete Schourek?

Home plate ump had a strike zone a mile wide last night. He called it for both pitchers, but give Glavine something like that and he'll use it allllllll night long. I can't count the number of strikes called that were outside of Fox's computer graphic strike zone box.

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by Roy Tucker

So what did Dave Duncan do/say to Jeff Weaver to get him to pull a Pete Schourek?

Beats the heck out of me but he shouldn't go anywhere else for any amount of money - if he were smart.

[M2]

The one thing Duncan does (and Leo Mazzone does it too) is he forces you to work off your heater, even if it's only lukewarm. Pitchers who've fallen in love with their breaking pitches tend to find extra velocity once they start throwing the ace on a more consistent basis.

[IslandRed]

Originally Posted by flyer85

where the heck did Weaver find that fastball. Hitting 93-94

Saw an article in today's USA Today about the radar guns being used in the playoffs... said guys were laughing at some of the readings, like Joe Kennedy hitting 97, Kenny Rogers at 94, etc.

[blumj]

Originally Posted by IslandRed

Saw an article in today's USA Today about the radar guns being used in the playoffs... said guys were laughing at some of the readings, like Joe Kennedy hitting 97, Kenny Rogers at 94, etc.

Well, it has been laughable. Sure, Zumaya throws hard, but he's not really hitting 103 consistently. And the announcers talking about how Todd Jones, unlike others in the Tigers pen, doesn't throw hard, while the screen gun has him hitting 95?

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by M2

He's already had a better career than every reliever in the HOF except for maybe Eck (only because he was a starter too) and Hoyt Wilhelm (because of his crazy longevity). Best K/9 in history. He's got 10 years of pure devastation on his resume. He really shouldn't need more than that. Though he'll climb to 5th on the career saves list in two years and he's on track for 1,000 IP in four. He and Mo Rivera have the two lowest ERAs any pitcher has posted since the Deadball Era.

Ten years from a reliever, no matter how great, isn't enough, IMO. Particularly when you factor in the fact that his teams have never done anything in the postseason (maybe not his fault, but...it matters). He's got to win a ring at least. If not a ring, then five more years. I hate that any relievers get in, but when they are the very, very best of their generation (Eck) I'll make an exception.

[NJReds]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Ten years from a reliever, no matter how great, isn't enough, IMO. Particularly when you factor in the fact that his teams have never done anything in the postseason (maybe not his fault, but...it matters). He's got to win a ring at least. If not a ring, then five more years. I hate that any relievers get in, but when they are the very, very best of their generation (Eck) I'll make an exception.

Eck also had 200 or so wins as a starter, IIRC.

I've seen both pitch in their prime, and if Gossage isn't in, then Wagner shouldn't be in.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by NJReds

Eck also had 200 or so wins as a starter, IIRC.

I've seen both pitch in their prime, and if Gossage isn't in, then Wagner shouldn't be in.

And if we're being perfectly honest, Wagner's only dominated 8 1/2 total seasons. His 2000 season was totally lost, and his 2004 was severely shortened.

Trevor Hoffman is, hands down, the best reliever of the two men's generation. It's not really even close. But it will be close if Wagner continues to dominate for 5 more seasons.

[dabvu2498]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

And if we're being perfectly honest, Wagner's only dominated 8 1/2 total seasons. His 2000 season was totally lost, and his 2004 was severely shortened.

Trevor Hoffman is, hands down, the best reliever of the two men's generation. It's not really even close. But it will be close if Wagner continues to dominate for 5 more seasons.

Would you consider Rivera to be from another generation???

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by dabvu2498

Would you consider Rivera to be from another generation???

When he does it for 13 seasons, then he will be. He'll surely eclipse Hoffman when all is said and done, though.

My warrant in virtually all HOF arguments is longevity. It settles a ton of squabbles: how LONG were you great? But that's just my criterion, not necessarily everyone's.

Let me just add that I think the HOF should contain far fewer members than it does.

[M2]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Ten years from a reliever, no matter how great, isn't enough, IMO. Particularly when you factor in the fact that his teams have never done anything in the postseason (maybe not his fault, but...it matters). He's got to win a ring at least. If not a ring, then five more years. I hate that any relievers get in, but when they are the very, very best of their generation (Eck) I'll make an exception.

Wagner's got exactly two peers in terms of quality, Mariano Rivera (who's the best reliever ever) and Hoyt Wilhelm (the most durable reliever ever), and Eck never had ten years like Wagner has. As a reliever he had only four years that would have met with the standards Wagner's set (1988, 1989, 1991 and 1990, which was the year he put up seemingly fictional numbers). The other eight seasons of Eck's career would be considered a down season for Wagner. Eck did manage to get a ring, but it came in the one World Series where his team barely needed him. He threw all of 1.2 IP against the Giants because Dave Stewart and Mike Moore laid waste to the San Francisco lineup. Eck picked up a cheap save, protecting a three-run lead in the final game of the sweep. Outside of that he was 0-2 with no saves and a 9.00 ERA in the World Series. So that's what the greatest reliever of his generation did.

Rollie Fingers only put together 12 good years and 2/3 of those weren't as good as Wagner's worst good season.

Bruce Sutter only put up eight good seasons and half of those were decidedly sub-Wagner efforts.

Now you can argue that Eck, Fingers and Sutter don't belong in the Hall, but if they're to be used as any sort of measuring stick (seeing that they comprise 3/4 of the relievers in the HOF) then Wagner's cleared their standard. He's been great longer than any of those guys were.

He might even take care of that whole ring thing this season too.

[M2]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

And if we're being perfectly honest, Wagner's only dominated 8 1/2 total seasons. His 2000 season was totally lost, and his 2004 was severely shortened.

Trevor Hoffman is, hands down, the best reliever of the two men's generation. It's not really even close. But it will be close if Wagner continues to dominate for 5 more seasons.

9 1/2, you probably forgot to count this season.

And Wagner's got ERA, ERA+, WHIP K/9 and OPS against on Hoffman, all by a healthy margin. It's not close, Wagner's the superior pitcher (though I'd be willing to vote for Hoffman to get into Cooperstown as well).

[dabvu2498]

Baseball Reference's Most similar players through current age for these three:

Hoffman:
Roberto Hernandez (883)
Jeff Reardon (869)
Lee Smith (869)
John Franco (865)
Doug Jones (830)
Todd Jones (827)
Kent Tekulve (812)
Mike Timlin (799)
Jay Howell (799)
Don McMahon (798)

Rivera:
Trevor Hoffman (935)
John Franco (880)
Dan Quisenberry (878)
Tom Henke (876)
Jeff Montgomery (874)
Jeff Reardon (872)
Roberto Hernandez (868)
Dave Smith (867)
Lee Smith (852)
Todd Worrell (850)

Billy Wagner:
Mariano Rivera (925)
Trevor Hoffman (918)
Randy Myers (916)
Troy Percival (903)
John Franco (900)
Jeff Montgomery (890)
Rod Beck (889)
Tom Henke (888)
Roberto Hernandez (881)
Dave Smith (869)

Nothing too pertnent there. Just found those lists interesting.

[M2]

I should add that Wagner's also got the cache of being the best left-handed reliever ever. He's the Lefty Grove of the bullpen.