Worst Team in WS History?

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Chris Duncan comes to mind. Here is a guy with a career .749 OPS minor league OPS who just came out out of no where to post a .950+ OPS with the Cardinals? Not often you a bad minor leaguer come up and post an OPS 200 points higher than his minor league average.

I won't argue with that. He looks REALLY roided out. Plus, with his old man being such a visible and powerful figure, no one's going to make Chris tinkle into a cup.

That's a fair observation, OBM. I think he's a roidhead much more than I think Pujols is.

[OnBaseMachine]

Also, LaRussa's teams have always been full of juicers dating back to his Oakland days. Coincidence? I think not.

[GOOCH]

Chris Duncan is 6'5". He looks more like Adam Dunn than Mark McGwire. Not that appearance tells you much about steroid use. Look, if it makes you feel better maligning good and great players with the steriod charge, with not one iota of evidence to back it up, fine. But it is not even close to 'fair' and it doesn't strike me as a good way to spend your time. D.GOOCH

[OnBaseMachine]

I think Scott Speizio's chin is on steroirds. Or crack. One of the two.

My evidence is his manager has a history of managing juicers (not a coincidence), and Duncan's 200+ point boost in OPS raises a red flag for me.

[westofyou]

with his old man being such a visible and powerful figure, no one's going to make Chris tinkle into a cup.

Really?

If Barry has done it you can bet Chris Duncan will.

[MWM]

Gooch, are you arguing that this isn't a bad team, or that it's not worse relative to most past world series teams? Those are two different arguments. I don't think they're really a bad team in the sense that the Royals are a bad team. This Cards team has some talent and is most definitely not a bad team. But when I think of World Series caliber teams, sorry but this years Cards do not seem to be in that category. They were in the right place at the right time in the NL. Nothing wrong with that and if I were a Cards fan, I wouldn't care one iota if that were the case if it meant another world series.

But if you're trying to convince me that this Cardinals team is on par with most of the teams that go to the World Series, I dn't think you're going to get very far. Bad team? Nah. Typical World Series caliber? No either. The 2006 Cardinals are not very high on the list when you're talking about quality of teams in the World Series. As a matter of fact, I'm looking over the list of teams, in both leagues, that made the World Series over the last 25 years, and the only team I think is in the same category is the 87 Twins. I can't look at a single other team and say, "yeah, this year's Cardinals team is as good or better."

If I were you, I'd be sitting back and saying, "I don't give a damn." But I would be trying to convinve us that they're at the same level as most of the teams that go to the series.

[vaticanplum]

MWM! how was the game?

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Really?

If Barry has done it you can bet Chris Duncan will.

Hello, skin color.

Plus Bobby Bonds is so far out of the game that he doesn't have the current weight to throw around in MLB that a politically connected guy like Duncan has.

You can bet your arse if Dave Duncan says "There's nothing to see here, move along," that that's exactly what MLB will do.

And Duncan will never draw the attention that Bonds does anyway, so the point is moot.

If there's a juicer on the Cardinals, it's Chris Duncan: he's all kinds of puffy, and has those "log" arms that you can't achieve by lifting weights alone. Plus, he's pretty pimply, and has a faint moonface. I'd bet a case of kosher dogs the guy's getting chemical assistance.

[westofyou]

Assumptions are fun.. but in the end they're just that.

Me?

I like data.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Assumptions are fun.. but in the end they're just that.

Me?

I like data.

I do too. But occasionally assumptions are interesting. And let's face it: it was assumptions that lead to the whole steroids witchhunt in the first place. It sure as hell wasn't hard evidence.

I think some Reds have used steroids. I think a lot of players use steroids. So it's not sour grapes on my part. (And like I said, I have no reason to suspect Pujols is a user).

And with the data provided by OBM that revealed such a freaky statistical jump in Duncan's numbers, coupled with his physique, well, I don't feel so bad about throwing around harmless conjecture on a message board.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Plus Bobby Bonds is so far out of the game that he doesn't have the current weight to throw around in MLB that a politically connected guy like Duncan has.

Bobby Bonds is no longer with us.

I would think that Barry's status in the record book would give him plenty of weight in the game regardless of who his dad is.

It would certainly have more weight than Dave Duncan.

[westofyou]

FWIW Chris Duncan 6'5 210, Willie McCovey 6'4" 195

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by mth123

Bobby Bonds is no longer with us.

I would think that Barry's status in the record book would give him plenty of weight in the game regardless of who his dad is.

It would certainly have more weight than Dave Duncan.

First of all, Barry Bonds, by his nature as the top player in his sport performing at the level he performed at his age, was a lightning rod. He was bound to attract scrutiny.

And if you don't think that a living breathing member of the Baseball Brotherhood can't deflect suspicion away from one of its member's sons, then I don't know what to say. A guy like Dave Duncan, and by extension Tony Larussa, is among the top 20 or so most powerful people in all of baseball--the only people more powerful than two guys like that are team owners. Players--even superstars like Barry Bonds--don't possess the clout that guys like Larussa, Duncan, Torre possess--not in the exceedingly conservative and white ivory tower of MLB.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by westofyou

FWIW Chris Duncan 6'5 210, Willie McCovey 6'4" 195

I'm 6'6" 230, and I possess the physique of a china doll by comparison to Chris Duncan.

If Chris Duncan is a pound under 250, then I'm Lancelot Link.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

First of all, Barry Bonds, by his nature as the top player in his sport performing at the level he performed at his age, was a lightning rod. He was bound to attract scrutiny.

And if you don't think that a living breathing member of the Baseball Brotherhood can't deflect suspicion away from one of its member's sons, then I don't know what to say. A guy like Dave Duncan, and by extension Tony Larussa, is among the top 20 or so most powerful people in all of baseball--the only people more powerful than two guys like that are team owners. Players--even superstars like Barry Bonds--don't possess the clout that guys like Larussa, Duncan, Torre possess--not in the exceedingly conservative and white ivory tower of MLB.

I would think that Barry's run at the records and to a lesser extent the race issue, is the very reason why Baseball would turn the other way for Barry and go hard after guys like Duncan. Above all else baseball wants to have the appearance of a "clean" record, a good record with minorities, and an effective steroid testing program.

They don't want evidence against Bonds. But catching a guy like Duncan would say that baseball is:

- effectively testing
- impartial toward players with baseball heritage ("brotherhood" as you say)
- blind to race

If Duncan was guilty, they would be announcing it with fanfare IMO. They wouldn't be covering it up.