Verlander or Ramirez? - RedsZone.com - Cincinnati Reds Fans' Home for Baseball Discussion

Superdude · 10-23-2006, 12:14 AM

I was just cruising through some stats and found it interesting that the peripherals of Justin Verlander were eerily similar to that of Elizardo Ramirez. Check it out...

Lizard: 104IP 5.37ERA 4.65FIP 5.97K/9 2.51BB/9 1.21HR/9 10.64H/9
Verlander: 186IP 3.63ERA 4.44FIP 6.00K/9 2.90BB/9 1.02HR/9 9.05H/9

Everything seems to even out until you get to hit rate, and a lot of that is out of the pitchers control anyway. It's just funny how the guy who was a Cy Young candidate for most of the year wasn't all that much better than a guy who couldn't even stay in the bigs. Hopefully EZ gets another shot in '07.

ghettochild · 10-23-2006, 12:19 AM

the numbers are kinda flawed because the stats are based off IP no?

Highlifeman21 · 10-23-2006, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superdude

I was just cruising through some stats and found it interesting that the peripherals of Justin Verlander were eerily similar to that of Elizardo Ramirez. Check it out...

Lizard: 104IP 5.37ERA 4.65FIP 5.97K/9 2.51BB/9 1.21HR/9 10.64H/9
Verlander: 186IP 3.63ERA 4.44FIP 6.00K/9 2.90BB/9 1.02HR/9 9.05H/9

Everything seems to even out until you get to hit rate, and that's out of the pitchers control anyway. It's just funny how the guy who was a Cy Young candidate for most of the year wasn't all that much better than a guy who couldn't even stay in the bigs. Hopefully EZ gets another shot in '07.

And those are similar how?

Verlander has him beat in every category except BB/9. That's it. Are you trying to suggest that Verlander's ERA is the product of a better defense behind him?

I'm hoping we either get it through The Lizard's head that he needs to be a hard throwing candidate out of the bullpen, or we trade him for something that might actually help us. Back to back nights @ Citizens Bank Park made up my mind on The Lizard.

Patrick Bateman · 10-23-2006, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highlifeman21

And those are similar how?

Verlander has him beat in every category except BB/9. That's it. Are you trying to suggest that Verlander's ERA is the product of a better defense behind him?

I'm hoping we either get it through The Lizard's head that he needs to be a hard throwing candidate out of the bullpen, or we trade him for something that might actually help us. Back to back nights @ Citizens Bank Park made up my mind on The Lizard.

I think superdude makes some good points.

Obviously Verlander has the higher upside and is easily the better bet for the future, but Verlander wasn't really that dominate this season. His FIP is very close with EZ's, meaning Verlander was better based on the factors of luck, defense, and the park pitched in. And of course EZ is in the NL so he gets the advantage of not facing the DH.

Now Verlaner also pitched the entire season while Ramirez did not, but what it shows is that EZ was holding his own in the majors this season, and if he can get over his late season troubles, he may be a decent 4th or 5th starter that can maintain an ERA in the 4.30-4.50 range. And considering he's going to be cheap for years to come, he may not be a bad pitcher to have around, rather than wasting 9M on Milton or 4M+on Lohse.

PuffyPig · 10-23-2006, 10:49 AM

There was a time this season, just before Ramirez imploded, where his DIPS ERA was just below 4, and identical to Verlander. Then Ramirez had those 2-3 bad games, and was injured for the rest of the season.

If healthy, there's no reason why Ramirez can't be a pretty good 4-5 starter for us.

M2 · 10-23-2006, 10:58 AM

The Lizard has got all the earmarks of being the new Lance Davis. He's stuff challenged and that shoulder injury isn't going to help his cause.

Verlander's got monster stuff and he will be a dominant for the next decade provided he stays healthy. It's the difference between a kid who was just scratching the surface of what he can and another who for a brief time wildly overachieved.

dunner13 · 10-23-2006, 11:28 AM

Put verlander in the NL and his numbers would be even better than they already are. You can just watch verlander and ramirez throw and immediatly recognize that verlander is a cy young pitcher and ramirez a 4th or 5th starter.

Johnny Footstool · 10-23-2006, 12:07 PM

Verlander can't rely on balls in play for outs, though. If he's going to be consistently good, he has to harness that great stuff of his and strike out more than 6 batters per 9 innings.

Patrick Bateman · 10-23-2006, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M2

The Lizard has got all the earmarks of being the new Lance Davis. He's stuff challenged and that shoulder injury isn't going to help his cause.

Verlander's got monster stuff and he will be a dominant for the next decade provided he stays healthy. It's the difference between a kid who was just scratching the surface of what he can and another who for a brief time wildly overachieved.

Agreed. Obviously Verlander has the higer potential. He's always been viewed as a top of the rotation guy, but based simply on this season, Ramirez wasn't that far behind him.

TRF · 10-23-2006, 01:49 PM

I don't think EZ is stuff challenged at all. Good changeup and a fastball that hits 88-94. He's got an outstanding changeup and excellent control

I think he simply has a different learning curve. Verlander had the benefit of a college program to aid in his development. The minors can be a crapshoot for development, especially the reds minor league system when it comes to developing pitchers.

TeamSelig · 10-23-2006, 02:10 PM

Stuff challenged?

Maybe not a good pitcher, but he has good stuff IMO... a few games last year he really showed it... just needs to be more consistent

dougdirt · 10-23-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRF

I don't think EZ is stuff challenged at all. Good changeup and a fastball that hits 88-94. He's got an outstanding changeup and excellent control

I think he simply has a different learning curve. Verlander had the benefit of a college program to aid in his development. The minors can be a crapshoot for development, especially the reds minor league system when it comes to developing pitchers.

While that may be true, Ramirez came through the Phillies system until the last few weeks he was in AA.

M2 · 10-23-2006, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeamSelig

Stuff challenged?

Maybe not a good pitcher, but he has good stuff IMO... a few games last year he really showed it... just needs to be more consistent

Arrow straight fastball and his curve is average. He really needs his change to develop into a plus pitch if he wants to enjoy long term success. Lance Davis had a few good games too. So did Kevin Jarvis.

Superdude · 10-23-2006, 03:42 PM

Just to be clear, I never said I would take Ramirez over Verlander. Verlander has 3 absolutely ridiculous pitches and obviously has more potential. Ramirez's stuff is better than people say it is though. Since when did an 89-93MPH fastball, good curve, and workable changeup become a crappy arsenal? Anwho, that's not the point. I was just pointing out that their stats weren't all that different despite their ERA's saying otherwise.

TeamSelig · 10-23-2006, 03:52 PM

His highlight games are when his breaking ball is pretty sick. If consistent with it, he could be a good pitcher.

10-23-2006, 12:14 AM	#1
Superdude Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,431	Verlander or Ramirez? I was just cruising through some stats and found it interesting that the peripherals of Justin Verlander were eerily similar to that of Elizardo Ramirez. Check it out... Lizard: 104IP 5.37ERA 4.65FIP 5.97K/9 2.51BB/9 1.21HR/9 10.64H/9 Verlander: 186IP 3.63ERA 4.44FIP 6.00K/9 2.90BB/9 1.02HR/9 9.05H/9 Everything seems to even out until you get to hit rate, and a lot of that is out of the pitchers control anyway. It's just funny how the guy who was a Cy Young candidate for most of the year wasn't all that much better than a guy who couldn't even stay in the bigs. Hopefully EZ gets another shot in '07. Last edited by Superdude; 10-23-2006 at 01:01 AM.

10-23-2006, 12:19 AM	#2
ghettochild WAGS Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Allen, Texas Posts: 616	Re: Verlander or Ramirez? the numbers are kinda flawed because the stats are based off IP no? __________________ Strike 3 Forums

10-23-2006, 10:49 AM	#5
PuffyPig Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 9,713	Re: Verlander or Ramirez? There was a time this season, just before Ramirez imploded, where his DIPS ERA was just below 4, and identical to Verlander. Then Ramirez had those 2-3 bad games, and was injured for the rest of the season. If healthy, there's no reason why Ramirez can't be a pretty good 4-5 starter for us.

10-23-2006, 10:58 AM	#6
M2 Posting in Dynarama Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Boston Posts: 26,668	Re: Verlander or Ramirez? The Lizard has got all the earmarks of being the new Lance Davis. He's stuff challenged and that shoulder injury isn't going to help his cause. Verlander's got monster stuff and he will be a dominant for the next decade provided he stays healthy. It's the difference between a kid who was just scratching the surface of what he can and another who for a brief time wildly overachieved. __________________ Baseball isn't a magic trick ... it doesn't get spoiled if you figure out how it works. - gonelong I'm witchcrafting everybody.

10-23-2006, 11:28 AM	#7
dunner13 Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 589	Re: Verlander or Ramirez? Put verlander in the NL and his numbers would be even better than they already are. You can just watch verlander and ramirez throw and immediatly recognize that verlander is a cy young pitcher and ramirez a 4th or 5th starter.

10-23-2006, 12:07 PM	#8
Johnny Footstool Churlish Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Olathe, KS Posts: 13,664	Re: Verlander or Ramirez? Verlander can't rely on balls in play for outs, though. If he's going to be consistently good, he has to harness that great stuff of his and strike out more than 6 batters per 9 innings. __________________ "I prefer books and movies where the conflict isn't of the extreme cannibal apocalypse variety I guess." Redsfaithful

10-23-2006, 01:49 PM	#10
TRF Vavasor Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Amarillo, TX Posts: 12,677	Re: Verlander or Ramirez? I don't think EZ is stuff challenged at all. Good changeup and a fastball that hits 88-94. He's got an outstanding changeup and excellent control I think he simply has a different learning curve. Verlander had the benefit of a college program to aid in his development. The minors can be a crapshoot for development, especially the reds minor league system when it comes to developing pitchers. __________________ "don't end up with a grandson with a dog collar."

10-23-2006, 02:10 PM	#11
TeamSelig Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,727	Re: Verlander or Ramirez? Stuff challenged? Maybe not a good pitcher, but he has good stuff IMO... a few games last year he really showed it... just needs to be more consistent

10-23-2006, 03:42 PM	#14
Superdude Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,431	Re: Verlander or Ramirez? Just to be clear, I never said I would take Ramirez over Verlander. Verlander has 3 absolutely ridiculous pitches and obviously has more potential. Ramirez's stuff is better than people say it is though. Since when did an 89-93MPH fastball, good curve, and workable changeup become a crappy arsenal? Anwho, that's not the point. I was just pointing out that their stats weren't all that different despite their ERA's saying otherwise.

10-23-2006, 03:52 PM	#15
TeamSelig Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,727	Re: Verlander or Ramirez? His highlight games are when his breaking ball is pretty sick. If consistent with it, he could be a good pitcher.

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