Brook Jacoby new Reds Hitting coach

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by traderumor

Which all points to what we are told was the reason Chambliss was fired and the real reason(s) he was canned. He was also fired by the Yankees. That is the trouble with message boards. Folks make dogmatic judgments on tales from the crypt.

It's called "scapegoating", tr. Pure and simple.

[Redsland]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

It's called "scapegoating", tr. Pure and simple.

Turd. Hill. Gravity.

[GAC]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

We did. His name is Felipe Lopez.

Now that is regression. The guy had one really solid season (2005).

Lopez couldn't carry Young's glove as far as consistent performance at the SS position over the last few years IMO.

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by GAC

Now that is regression. The guy had one really solid season (2005).

Lopez couldn't carry Young's glove as far as consistent performance at the SS position over the last few years IMO.

Prior to 2006, Lopez only HAD one full season and was shipped off to one of the most severe pitching parks in the game. That kinda' skews the numbers.

And methinks you drastically overestimate Young's fielding performance. He's been near the bottom of any number of defensive lists ever since he acquired the position. He was worse than Lopez in 2005.

[Team Clark]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

Prior to 2006, Lopez only HAD one full season and was shipped off to one of the most severe pitching parks in the game. That kinda' skews the numbers.

And methinks you drastically overestimate Young's fielding performance. He's been near the bottom of any number of defensive lists ever since he acquired the position. He was worse than Lopez in 2005.

Steel... Who would you rather have at SS? Lopez or Young? I am not sure. I like Young's ability with the bat much better than Lopez but I'm not sold on him as a Short Stop. What is your opinion?

[Cooper]

imo, young is a worse fielder than lopez (that ain't easy)....

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by Team Clark

Steel... Who would you rather have at SS? Lopez or Young? I am not sure. I like Young's ability with the bat much better than Lopez but I'm not sold on him as a Short Stop. What is your opinion?

Young's got the better offensive performance history with the bat, but he's also 30 years old. Got a couple good seasons left with the stick. Lopez is 3.5 years younger and still has a lot of unrealized potential and is moving into his age-prime years. But I wouldn't be playing either at Short.

[Team Clark]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

Young's got the better offensive performance history with the bat, but he's also 30 years old. Got a couple good seasons left with the stick. Lopez is 3.5 years younger and still has a lot of unrealized potential and is moving into his age-prime years. But I wouldn't be playing either at Short.

We're on the same wave length on this one. I really liked Young as a 2B. I just do not see him as the above average SS that he needs to be for the Rangers. Young certainly can swing the stick with 4 consecutive 200+ hit seasons. Hitting .300 and getting 200+ hits is no fluke. However, he also led the league in Outs which can present it's own set of problems when you do not walk very much. Lopez is still trying to find a measure of consistency in his short career. Young has him beat there by a good margin as you mentioned. Lopez's success will come with AB's and another season under his belt. I believe he has one year left to make himself into a bonafide ML SS.

[GAC]

At 3 Mil/Yr (his current salary), I would take Young in a heartbeat if having to choose between him and Lopez.

And respectfully, I'm not buying this "unrealized" potential in Felipe Lopez. At some point that "potential" needs to translate into consistent performance, and I just haven't seen it with Felipe, and his time is growing short.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

Young's got the better offensive performance history with the bat, but he's also 30 years old. Got a couple good seasons left with the stick. Lopez is 3.5 years younger and still has a lot of unrealized potential and is moving into his age-prime years. But I wouldn't be playing either at Short.

What is the age when players stats start trailing off rapidly? I would guess it to be 34-35 but Steel's implying that it happens at 32 (unless I am missreading it).

Do players skills, on average, fall off after age 32? If so, that is much younger than I would have supposed.

Does anyone happen to have any data on this.....................(he asks with a grin)? I'm asking serriously because now I'm currious.

[Team Clark]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

What is the age when players stats start trailing off rapidly? I would guess it to be 34-35 but Steel's implying that it happens at 32 (unless I am missreading it).

Do players skills, on average, fall off after age 32? If so, that is much younger than I would have supposed.

Does anyone happen to have any data on this.....................(he asks with a grin)? I'm asking serriously because now I'm currious.

There may be a statistic out there to give you an average but this is one area IMO where you need to evaluate the individual. Body type, Genes, position played, injuries, etc.... I would not be surprised to see Young continue to hit the way he has until he is 34-35. I think he could be a productive 3B/DH from 36-38.

[Puffy]

Originally Posted by GAC

Lopez couldn't carry Young's glove as far as consistent performance at the SS position over the last few years IMO.

Have you ever seen Young at SS? He's no better than Lopez - and possibly worse.

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

What is the age when players stats start trailing off rapidly? I would guess it to be 34-35 but Steel's implying that it happens at 32 (unless I am missreading it).

Do players skills, on average, fall off after age 32? If so, that is much younger than I would have supposed.

Does anyone happen to have any data on this.....................(he asks with a grin)? I'm asking serriously because now I'm currious.

By "a couple", I mean two or three. Guys who profile like Young (low IsoD) tend to fade out a bit faster. From BP, the top 10 most comparable players are:

Johnny Logan
Gil McDougald
Edgar Renteria
Bill Madlock
Jeff Cirillo
Barry Larkin
Bobby Avila
Alvin Dark
Carney Lansford
Ryne Sandberg

At first glance, it looks like a pretty decent list (although I question Larkin's inclusion). But drill down and you'll find a connector:

Excepting Larkin (a high IsoD hitter), the remainder of players with data past age 30 were pretty much effectively done as consistent highly-productive hitters by age 33. That doesn't mean it's sure to happen to Young, but it's just how his skill set tends to operate.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

By "a couple", I mean two or three. Guys who profile like Young (low IsoD) tend to fade out a bit faster. From BP, the top 10 most comparable players are:

Excepting Larkin (a high IsoD hitter), the remainder of players with data past age 30 were pretty much effectively done as consistent highly-productive hitters by age 33. That doesn't mean it's sure to happen to Young, but it's just how his skill set tends to operate.

So guys who rely mostly on hitting prowess/power to get on base slow down around 33 and those who can get on base via other methods along with hitting (and corespondingly have higher IsoD) can continue to be productive longer because basically they are more paitient at the plate (ie. can get more walks, can work the count, wait for "their" pitch, etc) ? That's a grose simplification but is what I am getting out of your post.

I'm assuming that the low IsoD slow down because they start to loose that ability to consitantly use hits to get on base. Basically, their bodies start to slow down and they can't get the hits they did when they were younger.

Very interesting stuff. Thanks for the help.

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

What is the age when players stats start trailing off rapidly? I would guess it to be 34-35 but Steel's implying that it happens at 32 (unless I am missreading it).

Do players skills, on average, fall off after age 32? If so, that is much younger than I would have supposed.

Does anyone happen to have any data on this.....................(he asks with a grin)? I'm asking serriously because now I'm currious.

I'm not sure it's fair to say "players skills" in the aggregate. What's important about aging is that certain skills age differently than others. Offensively, your eye and plate discipline tends to stay good, if not improve. You also tend to get more power. However, your hands tend to slow down as well. If a player can adjust to his changing skills, he can age quite well.

Michael Young reminds me a bit of Jeff Kent. As he ages, I wouldn't be shocked to see his average drop 20-30 points but see him turn some of those 50 doubles in to homers and become a .280/.340/.500 type guy. Defensively, you lose range before any thing else. Some players can position themselves so well that they can hide the range issue (Ripken, later years Larkin). But Young is already range challenged.

Like Steel and TC, I'd not play either Lopez or Young at SS on my team. If I had to choose a guy for next year, I'd go for Young. Over the next 5, I'd go Lopez. Though if Lopez can't get his SLG back in the .450 range, I think his value goes way down.