Alex Gonzalez to the Reds

[blumj]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Jerry's so infinitely stupid, the leadoff spot will go to the fastest member of the team. I'm assuming Phillips.

That might be a good thing, because Gonzo's pretty slow, so he shouldn't be at all tempted to put him anywhere near the top of the lineup.

[vaticanplum]

Originally Posted by Clears Cleaver
AGon is a solid player, but I hated his approach at the plate and his demeanor. The guy never looked happy on the field

I'm guessing that Clears Cleaver would not be a fan of the sauntering Adam Dunn.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by blumj

That might be a good thing, because Gonzo's pretty slow, so he shouldn't be at all tempted to put him anywhere near the top of the lineup.

It is good in the sense that Phillips would be a better option than Gonzo. But Freel's an even better option, provided he's healthy.

[M2]

One other historical perspective to toss into the arena here: If the Cincinnati Reds franchise has any one outstanding trait, dating back to the 1800s in fact, it's defense. From Bid McPhee to Edd Roush to Billy Werber to Roy McMillan to Vada Pinson to Cesar Geronimo to Eric Davis to Pokey Reese, the Reds were, until the 21st century, built on a foundation of defense. You only have to go back to 1999 to find a spectacular defensive Reds team.

So a pure glove man at SS certainly harkens back to players like McMillan and Eddie Miller.

To echo what others are saying, putting Gonzalez, Phillips and Denorfia up the middle certainly would give the club a much better defense than what we've seen of late. Now the key is maximizing the offense on the corners. Scott Hatteberg's suddenly become a square peg. I happen to think Aubrey Huff could be a steal this offseason. I don't worry about the left-handed tilt. Eight decades of Yankee dominance have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that there's no such thing as being overly left-handed at the plate. What you don't see is too many overly right-handed teams going anywhere.

I'd also like to see the Reds get off the Jr. treadmill. Productive fragility can work for a big market club, but it can cripple a small market team to be without a key contributor for at least a quarter of every season. I'd love to know what the Devil Rays want for Elijah Dukes. Jason Kubel over in Minnesota is another kid who'd be a nice pluck.

[gm]

Clears Cleaver
AGon is a solid player, but I hated his approach at the plate and his demeanor. The guy never looked happy on the field.

Felo and Clayton were pretty stone-faced, as well. OTOH, Phillips has enough smiles for two MiF's

[cincyinco]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Ignore offense at your peril.

On a side note, though, I don't think Wayne Krivsky's shown any kind of ability to emulate the Ryan-constructed Twins in Cincinnati so far. Krivsky has virtually no eye for pitching, as the lion's share of his trades for pitching have been total disasters and his draft of pitchers was one of the worst in recent memory.
Strangely, what Krivsky's shown he CAN do is find offense.

Where on earth are you getting this from FCB ?

He did pretty well piciking up Arroyo, when most on here were saying it would be a disaster.

I also think you need to take a better look and re-evaluate some of the arms taken in this years draft... I think there's some big protypical pitching bodies and arms taken in the draft, a lot at the college level - and the HS one's seem very projectable.

Watson seems like he could move quick, and has good stuff. Ravin looks great from all accounts.. Jordan Smith had a solid debut. Lutz looks like a very good draft and follow.

I see a lot of knee jerk reaction to krivsky's moves. Defense, seemingly, is rarely considered around these parts. Well, consider the following:

"The Reds had a .979 fielding percentage and committed 128 errors in 2006 -- second-worst in the NL behind the Nationals in both categories."

Defense is defenitely a problem for the Reds. Granted, there are other issues with this team - but lets take it one step at a time. Gonzalez will bring strong D up the middle, at the most important defensive position on the diamond - and keeps Brandon Phillips at 2b. I dont think the money is a big issue.

[westofyou]

He did pretty well piciking up Arroyo, when most on here were saying it would be a disaster.

You mean the player who led the team in Win Shares?

Making him the first Reds starter in 13 years to do the feat.

Pretty good deal for a guy with no eye for pitching.

[M2]

The thing I think folks can come away liking from this signing is that the team needs defensive improvement and this directly addresses that. The problem a lot of us had with the Lopez/Kearns deal was that it didn't address the pitching and defense like it was supposed to, all it really did was subtract offense.

If Krivsky addresses everything else on the team's checklist of things to do in the same direct fashion, then I'll be pretty pleased. Of course we don't know what Wayne's checklist actually is. Hopefully throwing money at a "proven closer" isn't on there.

[mbgrayson]

Alex Gonzalez stats from the Hardball Times: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/st...tName=Gonzalez

Alex Gonzalez SS - Boston Red Sox

Bats:RThrows:RBorn:2/15/1977Salary:$3,000,000
Career Stats |Player Graphs

Win Shares

Year Tm Batting Fielding Total
2004 FLA 7.40 7.5 15
2005 FLA 6.90 6.2 13
2006 BOS 3.00 5.9 9


Fielding
From The Fielding Bible, published in February 2006 by John Dewan:
"Gonzalez is an underrated defender. His range and athleticism are top notch, he has a powerful arm and can make throws from deep in the hole and from his knees. He is excellent on the double play. Over the past few years, he and Luis Castillo have formed one of the best double play tandems in baseball"

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by westofyou

Glove man at a glove position... the horror.... the horror.

The game swings back and forth.

BTW: he can hit crappy pitching, he's .294/.324.449 in 136 ab's against the Reds in his career.

Which begs the rhetorical question -- is SS really a "glove" position on a team where 2 of the 3 "penciled in" starters for next year skew more to being fly-ball pitchers?

I'm really ambivalent towards this deal. I recognize the importance of good defense up the middle, but I the idea of playing a guy who makes an out in over 70% of his PAs gives me unpleasent feelings.

[Wheelhouse]

Originally Posted by GAC

My point is that every time a player is mentioned, OPS is immediately utilized to quantify whether the player is worth it, or simply fodder.

I'm not disagreeing that OPS isn't a "quick reference" to give a basic feel about a player. Only that when evaluating a player, looking at OB% and SLG% only is not giving a complete picture when evaluating a player and/or what they might contribute.

What about defense? If this guy can bring a solid upgrade, at a reasonable price, to this middle INF, is that of any value and/or should be considered?

Concepcion played 19 season with a sub-700 OPS.

How many games did our defense lose for us last year? Would Gonzalez possibly help to improve on that?

And what other viable alternatives are out there and available right now as far as SS/2B?

Good courage GAC. We can only hope that you would not be attacked if you didn't put a smiley next to the Concepcion sentencen about OPS, but I'm not sure that would soften the Maoist wrath of those who bring their sliderules to the ballpark. The answer is, OPS can describe, at most, 1/3 of a players value--another 1/3 being defense, and the other 1/3 being intangibles. But, of course, anything being intangible in the game is an enormous threat to those who think the game is wholly definable in numbers.

[GAC]

I like the signing. It fills a dire need on this team - solid middle INF defense.

To those that hate this signing I simply ask....

"What else, as far as SSs was out there and available? Are you saying you would have passed? What then was your solution for the Red's middle INF in '07?"

Signing Gonzo does not financially strap this organization. Or is it going to prevent them from still dealing in the market and/or making a trade for other pressing needs (pitcher, run producer).

The market itself COULD prevent that.

But again... IMHO, they filled a dire need on this team.

Now if we can just get them to put Deno in CFer (since he is our ONLY alternative at this point), we'd really go along way to improving this defense.

Kriv's next step though HAS to be addressing either issue of runs allowed and/or runs produced.

[GAC]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

Which begs the rhetorical question -- is SS really a "glove" position on a team where 2 of the 3 "penciled in" starters for next year skew more to being fly-ball pitchers?

I'm really ambivalent towards this deal. I recognize the importance of good defense up the middle, but I the idea of playing a guy who makes an out in over 70% of his PAs gives me unpleasent feelings.

When the Dam has alot of holes, you plug one at a time IMO.

[Ravenlord]

this should knock down the runs against by a couple dozen. Gonzalez hits a lot more flyballs than groundballs, so that bodes well for him as well.

i'm projecting him out to a 730ish OPS, and thusly around 75 runs created for 600 PAs. FWIW, that's about 15 runs more than Clayton can reasonably be expected for, and about 30 runs more than Castro can be reasonably expected for.

all in all a nice net gain as long as Krivsky doesn't make this his cornerstone.

[GAC]

Originally Posted by Aronchis

Krivsky won't be GM long with these types of moves. Overpaying marginal players isn't cutting it.

Marginal how?

The Question we need to ask ourselves is WHY or what role/dire need is Gonzo here to fill?

Offense? No.

Defense? Yes. Where he is not marginal.

Most who like this signing also agree and understand that MORE needs to be done, and other issues MUST be addressed.

But this signing addresses one of them.

I would love to have had a SS that filled both needs - solid bat and stellar defense. But where is that player available at? And the cost for such a player would probably hamstring the Reds financially from addressing other needs in this off-season.

This signing IMO doesn't do that.