Anyone following the Colts game?

[redsfanmia]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

FWIW -- until Dungy won that Super Bowl, that quote summed up his career: nice guy, good defensive mind, good coach, teams fold in the playoffs. It's what got him bounced from Tampa.

Dungy proved a lot of doubters wrong, but that doesn't mean the position being taken by the doubters was illogical.

I think Dungy would be classified as a great coach not just a good one. Check out his regular season record and the fact that he built a Tampa franchise from the bottom up and built them into a championship team.

[Caveat Emperor]

Originally Posted by redsfanmia

I think Dungy would be classified as a great coach not just a good one. Check out his regular season record and the fact that he built a Tampa franchise from the bottom up and built them into a championship team.

I don't think you can be considered "great" until you win the big one. Dungy is clearly a great coach -- but, in my mind, he didn't achieve greatness until he won the Super Bowl with Indy.

As a Bucs fan, I've got nothing but love for Dungy and what he did for the franchise. He took the good draft foundation that Sam Wyche had laid and brought a sense of purpose to the team. He completely changed the culture of a franchise that was used to being losers, the butts of jokes, and less popular in town than whatever team from up north was visiting.

But, it doesn't change the fact that he had some large warts on his resume prior to coming to Indy.

For one, he had difficulty developing any sort of consistency on offense. This was due in part to his conservative nature and the similarly conservative nature of the guys he hired to run his offenses (the "Buc Ball" games under offensive coordinator Mike Shula were legendary) and the tough time he and the organization had drafting and developing players to get any sort of passing attack going. They punted two day 1 QB draft choices (Trent Dilfer and Shaun King), two day 1 WR draft choices (Reidel Anthony and Jacquez Green), and a first round offensive lineman (Kenyatta Walker -- who they traded up to get). It wasn't until they brought in Brad Johnson (the epitome of the "have helmet, will travel" journeyman) and paid through the nose for Keyshawn Johnson that the passing offense developed any sort of pulse.

Second, he was consistently out-coached in big games (especially the playoffs). His teams folded like the Sunday Times routinely in the post season -- usually because their offense failed to move the football. The only game where I saw Dungy get the better of an opposing coaching staff was the 1999 NFC Championship game, where Dungy and Kiffin stonewalled Kurt Warner's magic for about 55 minutes and were a rule-changing non-catch away from killing a made for Disney story. The rest of the time was forgettable -- losing a couple times at Philly, losing at Green Bay, etc. A lot of those situations were made worse by the team falling into early season funks and having to rally back for late season victories -- usually costing them a shot at hosting playoff games or homefield advantage.

When he got to Indy, that reputation followed him. Fortunately, he was paired with a great offensive coordinator and great quarterback -- solving two issues that dogged him in Tampa right from the word go. To his credit, he stuck with what was working on that side of the ball and improved everything else.

So, yeah -- I love and respect Tony Dungy and feel that he has earned the accolades and right to be called great. But, I also understand where he was in his career when he left Tampa. He continued to grow, learn and improve himself through the entire process, though.

[DTCromer]

Originally Posted by Razor Shines

I was going to start a new Colts thread, but I did a search just in case we had one in the past. This isn't technically a Colts thread, but it'll do. It's really funny to read some of the posts in this thread considering how the season in question ended up. Especially this moron:



That dude has no idea what he's talking about.

Anyway, I know there are a few Colts fans on this board and I figured we could use this thread to discuss the season.

I've been really impressed with the offense all season. I'm not sure if they've ever been better, I think Manning having a full training camp and pre-season has a lot to do with that. And since the Miami game the defense has looked good also. I'm pretty pumped for how this season could turn out (hopefully we don't have to play the Chargers).

EDIT: Guess we didn't have a "Tavern" back then. I'm sure this can be moved.

Dungy should've won 2-3 Super Bowls with those teams he had. How can you be so good in the regular season and then constantly choke. . .yes, I said choke, numerous times in the playoffs. I understand he won 1 Super Bowl and I'm happy for the man, but he should've won AT LEAST 2, possibly 3 Super Bowls.

[Razor Shines]

Originally Posted by DTCromer

Dungy should've won 2-3 Super Bowls with those teams he had. How can you be so good in the regular season and then constantly choke. . .yes, I said choke, numerous times in the playoffs. I understand he won 1 Super Bowl and I'm happy for the man, but he should've won AT LEAST 2, possibly 3 Super Bowls.

I think I'd respond with this:

Originally Posted by MWM

I'm not so sure about that. In the NFL, samples are so small, that it's virtually impossible to draw conclusions on that kind of thing. It's damned hard to win "the big ones" in the NFL. Very few teams do it consistently that a coach coming up short in those games a few times does not necessarily mean they're incapable of coaching in them.

I think it's a bit naive to say they "should have have won at least 2 Super Bowls."

[DTCromer]

Originally Posted by Razor Shines

I think I'd respond with this:



I think it's a bit naive to say they "should have have won at least 2 Super Bowls."

No, I don't think so. The Colts had a dynasty of one of the GOAT offenses in NFL history. Manning/Wayne/Harrison/Clark/Addai/James and those cast of characters made that offense virtually impossible to stop. . . until the playoffs. Their defense wasn't great, but good enough for that offense.

[MWM]

I guess Tom Brady and the Patriots were just ho-hum average and shouldn't have gotten in the way. I sure wish the world really was that balck and white.

[gilpdawg]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Red

It's remarkable that in the Colts' super bowl year, they looked as vulnerable during the regular season as they have since they began the playoff run. They lost three games in the division. Gave up 375 yards to the Jags on the ground. Gave up 153 yards to Ron Dayne in a loss to the Texans. They were on the whole mediocre for the last 8 weeks of the season. Fortunately Norv Turner can't coach the Chargers against anyone but the Colts.

The 05 and 07 Colts were much much better than the 06 SB win team. That's why that win was so sweet for me. We blew it the previous year, when we were clearly the best team in the league but choked it away vs. the Steelers.

[gilpdawg]

Originally Posted by MWM

I guess Tom Brady and the Patriots were just ho-hum average and shouldn't have gotten in the way. I sure wish the world really was that balck and white.

Yeah, I never got the whole "Manning and Dungy were chokers" label. I never thought losing to New England were chokes. New England was the better team in almost every one of their battles, and that is why they always won, until the last one. It's not a choke if you lost to a better team. Although, like I said before, the Pittsburgh game in 2005 was a gag job, but we had that "liquored-up kicker" who screwed that up.

And for some reason, the Chargers are Peyton's kryptonite, but last year's team wasn't very good and was probably an 8-8 team without a few lucky bounces.

[gilpdawg]

Originally Posted by DTCromer

Their defense wasn't great, but good enough for that offense.

No offense, but you don't know football. Gotta have defense in the playoffs.

And believe me, as a Colts fan, we've had some HISTORICALLY bad defenses. Not "good enough for that offense." Even the Greatest Show on Turf could get a stop when they needed to. The Colts could not for a lot of years. The 2002 Colts had the worst defense I've ever seen in the NFL. Worse than any Bengals Defense. They only got to 6-10 by winning the occasional shootout. Even their BEST defensive teams were merely average, and that was for only a year or two.

D looks pretty good (unless they are playing the Wildcat) so far this year. I gotta think we've got as good of a chance of holding the trophy this year as anybody.

[Razor Shines]

Colts looked strong against the horrible Rams. Manning is throwing as well as I've ever seen him. That pass to Clark was pretty incredible.

They've got two more cake games and then the Pats on Sunday night the 15th. The Pats look like they have found their stride and that should be a really good game.

After that they really only have one more really tough game and that's Denver in December.

I think it's nearly impossible for the Colts to lose the South, but I will be disappointed if they are not the top seed in the AFC. 14-2 or 15-1 seem real possibilities. I'd love for the AFC to have to come through Lucas Oil this year.

[Razor Shines]

I can't believe that the Broncos have done this to us again. I just hope somebody knocks the Chargers out of the playoffs before the Colts have to play them.

[redsfanmia]

Originally Posted by Razor Shines

I can't believe that the Broncos have done this to us again. I just hope somebody knocks the Chargers out of the playoffs before the Colts have to play them.

Nah, the Colts need to exercise the Charger demon just like they did against the Patriots in 2006.

[REDblooded]

Originally Posted by redsfanmia

Nah, the Colts need to exercise the Charger demon just like they did against the Patriots in 2006.

Yup... I'd RATHER be the team to take them out.

[Razor Shines]

5 games in a row that they've trailed going into the 4th quarter. It's kept the games exciting, but can they just go out next week and lay a beating on the Titans? That would be nice.

[Matt700wlw]

Titans are on fire right now....they may take Indy down for the first time