Looking to see who can be centerfield

[bucksfan2]

I dont understand why people rate Hamilton as a below average CF. Of all the reds he is by far the best defensive CF right now and had the ability to go get balls. He may not cover the gound that A Jones does but he is a solid outfielder. This is also his first season playing baseball in a while so I would expect his defense to improve over the next season. I do not see Votto being traded at all. I just dont think the reds can afford to trade him. If you are a contending team you can move a guy like Votto for a piece of the puzzle, not the reds. Like it or not the future of this reds club is hitched to the wagons of Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, Hamilton, Phillips, Bray, Burton, etc.

[puca]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

I dont understand why people rate Hamilton as a below average CF. Of all the reds he is by far the best defensive CF right now and had the ability to go get balls. He may not cover the gound that A Jones does but he is a solid outfielder. This is also his first season playing baseball in a while so I would expect his defense to improve over the next season. I do not see Votto being traded at all. I just dont think the reds can afford to trade him. If you are a contending team you can move a guy like Votto for a piece of the puzzle, not the reds. Like it or not the future of this reds club is hitched to the wagons of Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, Hamilton, Phillips, Bray, Burton, etc.

The problem is that an outfield of Dunn/Hamilton/Griffey turns a lot of outs into hits. Each has below average range for the position they play. It is a toxic defensive mix.

[nate]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

I dont understand why people rate Hamilton as a below average CF. Of all the reds he is by far the best defensive CF right now and had the ability to go get balls. He may not cover the gound that A Jones does but he is a solid outfielder. This is also his first season playing baseball in a while so I would expect his defense to improve over the next season. I do not see Votto being traded at all. I just dont think the reds can afford to trade him. If you are a contending team you can move a guy like Votto for a piece of the puzzle, not the reds. Like it or not the future of this reds club is hitched to the wagons of Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Cueto, Hamilton, Phillips, Bray, Burton, etc.

You're right. On the Reds, he probably is the best defensive CF.

But, he's in that position because the rest of the outfielders are such poor defenders.

[MikeS21]

Originally Posted by puca

The problem is that an outfield of Dunn/Hamilton/Griffey turns a lot of outs into hits. Each has below average range for the position they play. It is a toxic defensive mix.

I must respectfully disagree about Josh Hamilton. I don't at all see the lack of range. He has a fairly long stride. He has better than average speed and he gets good reads and gets good jumps on the ball coming off the bat. He has the speed to get into the alleys and cut off and some times catch up with those gap shots. He also seems to have a knack for angling himself in good positions to make quick throws in order to hold runners. I've seen him chase down and catch enough fly balls all over the OF to prove that he has both the range and the speed to patrol CF.

The problem is not Josh Hamilton in CF. The problem is having Josh Hamilton trying to cover all three OF positions because of the lack of range from Dunn and Griffey. A lot of those balls that Hamilton is not getting to, most of them should have legitimately been fielded to by the corner OF's. You give Hamilton two average defensive fielders in RF and LF, and you will find that Hamilton will be one of the top 5-6 defensive CF in baseball.

The only knock I have on Hamilton's defense right now would be some minor mental mistakes - probably rustiness from his four year lay off - that coaching and playing experience should eventually eliminate. He missed out on a lot of minor league instruction and its going to take some time to get the kinks out.

Having said all that, as good as a CF that Hamilton is, he may actually be a better RF. In CF, he is is very good - good enough to be one of the elite CF's in the NL. In RF, he may become a Gold Glover.

[Puffy]

Trade Votto (package him with someone - Cueto?) and get a major league ready arm.

Dunn goes to first. Griffey goes to left. Hamilton in center, Bruce in right.

Easy.

[M2]

Originally Posted by MikeS21

In CF, he is is very good - good enough to be one of the elite CF's in the NL.

You're saying it, but he's not doing it.

We know for a fact that the Reds make less plays in the field than other teams. The data on Hamilton so far suggests that he's a fairly pedestrain CF, nothing special, certainly not elite.

I watch him too, he's not blowing my socks off or making me forget Cesar Geronimo, Eric Davis and Mike Cameron (the elite defensive CFs who've played for the Reds during my lifetime - side props to Eddie Milner and Darren Lewis).

I value his ability to be a perfunctory CF. Teams need guys like that. They need more than one guy who can handle the position. And certainly if the Reds don't get anyone new, then a perfunctory CF is better than the horror show Jr. put on out there from 2002-2006.

That said, I'd be more than a little surprised if Hamilton got the CF nod over Jay Bruce. Hamilton platooning with Freel or Hopper strikes me as Plan B.

But this all brings me back to a few themes we've been touching on in this thread.

1) The lip service paid to defense hasn't matched the performance, which is as bad as ever. The problem is more pernicious and entrenched than we or the franchise wanted to admit and most every position outside of 2B could be upgraded.

2) The Reds have needs and they may have to trade some OFs to fill those needs. Meaningful additions are going to necessitate turnover. If so and if that opens a slot for a new OF wouldn't you want that new OF to be a CF? I would.

3) The Reds have built a culture of trying to do just enough and it never works. They look to get just enough pitching, just enough defense, just enough offense. We're not going to be rooting for a consistent winner until that changes. Aiming for just enough basically means you start with a ceiling around .500 and you've got nowhere to go but down. Fans, as is our nature, like to take flights of fancy on just enough. Maybe just enough is secretly an abundance. Yet it rarely is. More often it's too little. What I'm saying is I'm up for some abundance. Don't whisper sweet nothings about pitching defense in my ear. Don't try to sell me on the idea that what's not working is going to work next season. Take some bloody action and change the mix.

[buckeyenut]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

Ooh. Now THAT's idea I like. Granderson is an absolute stud and Dunn definitely fits a need for them. Dunn between Mags and Sheffield? Scary!

It's one of those deals that just makes a ton of sense, but I imagine that we'd need to give up a little more than just Dunn given Granderson's defense, youth, and salary, and contract situation. Dunn would have to sign long term too, which I don't think he'd do in Detroit.

Personally, I'd be willing to do Jr and something for Granderson. DET understands the value of vets so they might go for that. If it has to be Dunn, I can live with that, but I want them to throw in a decent pitching prospect to make that work.

[BRM]

Originally Posted by buckeyenut

Personally, I'd be willing to do Jr and something for Granderson. DET understands the value of vets so they might go for that. If it has to be Dunn, I can live with that, but I want them to throw in a decent pitching prospect to make that work.

I doubt they would trade Granderson for Dunn straight up, let alone throwing in a pitching prospect. It would likely be the Reds that would have to sweeten the pot for the reasons Rick laid out.

[MikeS21]

Originally Posted by M2

You're saying it, but he's not doing it.

We know for a fact that the Reds make less plays in the field than other teams. The data on Hamilton so far suggests that he's a fairly pedestrain CF, nothing special, certainly not elite.

I watch him too, he's not blowing my socks off or making me forget Cesar Geronimo, Eric Davis and Mike Cameron (the elite defensive CFs who've played for the Reds during my lifetime - side props to Eddie Milner and Darren Lewis).

And this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. For some reason, we are watching the same player, but seeing two different things. I have been extremely impressed with some of the plays he has made

But this all brings me back to a few themes we've been touching on in this thread.

1) The lip service paid to defense hasnt matched the performance, which is as bad as ever. The problem is more pernicious and entrenched than we or the franchise wanted to admit and most every position outside of 2B could be upgraded.

2) The Reds have needs and they may have to trade some OFs to fill those needs. Meaningful additions are going to necessitate turnover. If so and if that opens a slot for a new OF wouldn't you want that new OF to be a CF? I would.

3) The Reds have built a culture of trying to do just enough and it never works. They look to get just enough pitching, just enough defense, just enough offense. We're not going to be rooting for a consistent winner until that changes. Aiming for just enough basically means you start with a ceiling around .500 and you've got nowhere to go but down. Fans, as is our nature, like to take flights of fancy on just enough. Maybe just enough is secretly an abundance. Yet it rarely is. More often it's too little. What I'm saying is I'm up for some abundance. Don't whisper sweet nothings about pitching defense in my ear. Don't try to sell me on the idea that what's not working is going to work next season. Take some bloody action and change the mix.

I have to agree with you here (except the part that all positions need defensive upgrades except 2B - I think all positions need upgraded except 2B and CF).

I do think WK has paid lip service to pitching and defense. Gonzalez was brought in for defense at SS. For what ever reason - his son's health problems or an overestimation of his defensive abilities, Gonzalez has not been good this year.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by M2

But this all brings me back to a few themes we've been touching on in this thread.

1) The lip service paid to defense hasn't matched the performance, which is as bad as ever. The problem is more pernicious and entrenched than we or the franchise wanted to admit and most every position outside of 2B could be upgraded.

I agree with everything you've said in the quoted post. However, just for a little context concerning this specific comment, compared to '06, the defense has been dramatically upgraded at shortstop even with Gonzo likely only being league average. Also, even though Hamilton is likely going to grade out as a below average defensive center fielder (my guess is that he'll end up -5 to -10 based upon play-by-play metrics), Hamilton/Freel/Hopper in CF is a huge upgrade over Jr. Unfortunately a lot of that gain is given right back by having Jr in right.

[Sea Ray]

I really don't see CF as a glaring hole on this team. Whatever we lose in defense at that position we'll gain in offense. If I'm Krivsky I don't take time and resources away from the other areas (pitching of course) to address CF.

[Sea Ray]

1) The lip service paid to defense hasn't matched the performance, which is as bad as ever. The problem is more pernicious and entrenched than we or the franchise wanted to admit and most every position outside of 2B could be upgraded

I disagree. The defense has clearly improved from the 1st to 2nd half this year. It's not as bad as ever. It's improved. What did they have like 8 errors in August? EE has improved his game and SS has improved since the 1st half as well. The losses under Mackanin can mostly be attributed to poor pitching. The defense has been fine and sometimes stellar, like BP's play to end the game last week.

[OldXOhio]

Originally Posted by BRM

You think Krivsky is content with fielding a below average defensive outfield?

He's had one for 2 years running. If he's not content with a below average defensive OF, you wouldn't know it.

[BRM]

Originally Posted by OldXOhio

He's had one for 2 years running. If he's not content with a below average defensive OF, you wouldn't know it.

It certainly looks that way, doesn't it?

[M2]

Originally Posted by MikeS21

And this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. For some reason, we are watching the same player, but seeing two different things. I have been extremely impressed with some of the plays he has made

I get that you've been impressed, but the objective data doesn't support your conclusion. I'll put it this way, if I had a "meh" reaction to Hamilton and the team defense, but the objective data showed they were doing pretty well, I'd start looking for what I was missing. Does the player get better jumps than I thought? What's working in the team dynamic that I hadn't noticed?

I firmly believe in using a pragmatic approach to baseball. The game tells you what's working and what isn't. Hamilton's hasn't been working out all that well in CF so far. He's passable, but that's about it. That's not a slam on him, it's what he's done. I don't expect more from what I've seen. Obviously you do, but how do you jibe your opinion with what's taken place on the field so far? Does rustiness cover it? I suppose it could, but the way it would manifest itself is inconsistent jumps and routes. I haven't seen a ton of that with Hamilton. He's not sloppy. He looks technically sound to me, not showing signs of significant rust. The short coming I've noticed is he just doesn't get there. He starts at the right time, he takes the right route, but he doesn't get there. My take has been that Hamilton's got diesel speed. His top end is fine, but it takes a little longer for him to reach top end.

Your better CFs, at least the ones I've always considered the better CFs, have that instantaneous drag racer acceleration. They get up to speed quickly. Top RFs I've seen - Evans, Winfield, Walker - all had that big gear speed that Hamilton seems to have. They couldn't do the 360-degree coverage of an elite CF, but they could handle the deep stuff really well and cut off rollers before they reached the wall (and then make a strong throw back to the IF to hold the runners). Hamilton's skill set seems better adapted to what I've seen work in RF.