Managerial search over. It's Dusty.

[IslandRed]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

To me, this is the outcome of the concerns about Dusty and walks. He's going to be pressuring some kids who already have a propensity to swing freely to go up there and swing more freely.

I see that as a bad thing.

I dunno... I went back and looked at Baseball Reference, and in the two instances where Dusty took over a team, hitters generally did about what they'd done before with respect to walk rate. The Cubs did take a dip when he got there, but that was almost wholly explainable by the dip in Sammy Sosa's walk rate, which was almost wholly explainable by the National League noticing he wasn't hitting 60 homers a year anymore, or maybe Sammy himself noticing.

Baker's apathy towards walks and related apathy towards OBP will show up in the lineup construction, but not IMO by changing the stripes of the hitters.

[D-Man]

Originally Posted by Stormy

Of course the man's teams were league leaders in walks in the years that Bonds was acquiring more walks by himself than many teams #1-4 hitters combined. In 2002, for example, Bonds drew 198 of his team's 616 walks.

If look at his 1999 Giants, you see a *team* that is littered with good to great BB ratios. Of the 14 Giants who had 100 or more ABs, 10 of them had AB:BB of 10:1 or better. And those that didn't--Aurilia, Javier, Servais, and Ramon Martinez--were close.

Bonds "only" had 78 BBs that year. It was a collective effort.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/1999.shtml

Originally Posted by Stormy

We have an impressionable young nucleus of players, and the last thing they need is to have a more free swinging, aggressive approach at the plate emphasized to them.

I don't see any evidence that Baker forced younger players, like Mueller, Aurilia, Benard, or Rios, to go up there hacking. And even if he did, he wasn't very successful in changing their respective approaches.

[RedsManRick]

I think the biggest concern is that improving the pitching staff simply isn't an issue of spending more money. It's about identifying and then developing or acquiring the talent. We could've spent $30M on Zito, Eaton, Dannys Baez, and Mike Stanton (oops) and have had no better a staff than we had already.

What I'd really like to see and hear is a commitment to identifying and acquiring top level talent -- be it through the amateur draft, trades, or free agency. I want to see evidence of an evaluation process that involves more than ERA and experience.

While spending money is great, clearly the real issue is making the right choices with your 40 man roster. Spending money simply gives you more choices and more flexibility, but it does little to help you make the right ones. In fact, it can even encourage the wrong ones because it allows you to be less critical.

M2 among others have convinced to at least reserve judgment on Dusty until he gives me reason to complain. At this point, I'm putting my focus back on Wayne to see what he does with this apparent opportunity. With a great financial commitment from Cast, the wealth of young ready and almost ready talent, and the general weakness of the division, there's a pretty nice opportunity here. If Dusty squanders it through mismanagement, I'll be at the very front of the line to call him on it. However, let's see what kind of roster Wayne gives him to work with first.

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by gm

I liked the whole post RLJ, but this last part got me wondering....is Johnnie B. his generation's Billy Martin?

You trying to steal my thunder?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...&postcount=629

Besides the tendancy to overwork starters and his teams drastically improving in his first year, I don't think the comparison holds as much water as I thought it did.

Billy never really stayed in any one place long enough to see if his teams went downhill after he was there for a while.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/ma...artibi02.shtml

Dusty stayed quite a while in SF and while they plotzed after his first season, he got them back to the Series. Dusty coddles his players - especially the vets. Billy coddled no one. Billy was a drunk and had problems off the field with his fists. Other than almost getting his kid ran over, I don't recall any problems with Dusty. Billy was known as a genius in the dugout as far as strategy went. Dusty, not so much. After thinking about it, I really think they have more differences than similarities.

[gm]

Originally Posted by Chip R

You trying to steal my thunder?

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showp...&postcount=629

Besides the tendancy to overwork starters and his teams drastically improving in his first year, I don't think the comparison holds as much water as I thought it did.

Billy never really stayed in any one place long enough to see if his teams went downhill after he was there for a while.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/ma...artibi02.shtml

Dusty stayed quite a while in SF and while they plotzed after his first season, he got them back to the Series. Dusty coddles his players - especially the vets. Billy coddled no one. Billy was a drunk and had problems off the field with his fists. Other than almost getting his kid ran over, I don't recall any problems with Dusty. Billy was known as a genius in the dugout as far as strategy went. Dusty, not so much. After thinking about it, I really think they have more differences than similarities.

Can't. Read. Everything.

(And if I take the time to read until the end of a thread to see if someone else already made the point I was planning to make...I usually forget what the point was by the end of the thread...does that make sense?)

[Ltlabner]

One aspect of having Dusty on board that might be of benefit (albiet fuzzy clubhouse stuff) of his experience, track record and name cachet with the players themselves.

I can easily see Narron more or less having to beg guys to do this or that. My impression, and maybe I'm way off base, is that for most of the players when Dusty speaks they will listen. At the very least, they will consider what he is talking about. These guys are only human and having that implied authority may help to impose some clubhouse discipline that has been lacking. Instead of asking, suggesting, hinting or even begging he mearly has to express himself.

How many times did Narron talk about PTGTRW and defense yet nothing ever changed. I'm sure he didn't stop talking about it behind the clubhouse doors, yet it didn't have an impact, the players didn't listen or they outright defied him.

Now Dusty could totally blow that implied authority. And he may use his implied authority to do wacky things, but in theory, I can see Dusty being able to adress issues much easier and quicker over a Narron, Miley or maybe even PMac type.

[gm]

Originally Posted by Raisor

So does a glacier.

Don't forget the knee. The 18-wheeler had no air brakes

[Ron Madden]

I hope like hell that we've heard the end of those silly cliches so often used by Narron and his ilk.

I've never understood why a run scored via a SF or ground out to second base is the right way to score a run, and hitting a pitch out of the park is somehow considered the wrong way to score a run.

The only Right Way To Play The Game is to score more runs than your opponent before making 27 outs, and to hold your opponent to as few runs as possible while recording 27 outs.

Sometimes you win 9-7 sometimes you lose 3-2.

I sure wish we had a Reds game to follow tonight. It's already been a long off season.

[westofyou]

I hope like hell that we've heard the end of those silly cliches so often used by Narron and his ilk

You mean EVERY baseball manager out there?

Even the new skool managers espouse homilies and the like.

You'll never escape that stuff, it's a part of the game... plus I don't think I ever heard a manager talk down a HR... that's announcer fodder.

[wheels]

Originally Posted by westofyou

You mean EVERY baseball manager out there?

Even the new skool managers espouse homilies and the like.

You'll never escape that stuff, it's a part of the game... plus I don't think I ever heard a manager talk down a HR... that's announcer fodder.

Managerisms are as much a part of the game as hot dogs and the seventh inning stretch.

I need a chuckle or two before the game starts, and Narron was especially hilarious with that Huckleberry Hound drawl.

I hope Baker can provide some laughs at the very least.

[oneupper]

Lots of interesting opinions in this thread.

I'll just get on the record by saying I DON'T like the signing.

Paying big bucks for a bad manager (It's my opinion, OK) is like paying big bucks for a bad pitcher. Its double BAD.

Dusty Baker will become Wayne Krivsky's Eric Milton.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by IslandRed

Baker's apathy towards walks and related apathy towards OBP will show up in the lineup construction, but not IMO by changing the stripes of the hitters.

This is a great comment.

[RedsManRick]

I think you're right Jojo. I think we're going to continue to see Dunn buried at 5. I wouldn't at all be surprised to see Phillips moved up to the two hole or leadoff if Hamilton is in CF.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

One aspect of having Dusty on board that might be of benefit (albiet fuzzy clubhouse stuff) of his experience, track record and name cachet with the players themselves.

I can easily see Narron more or less having to beg guys to do this or that. My impression, and maybe I'm way off base, is that for most of the players when Dusty speaks they will listen. At the very least, they will consider what he is talking about. These guys are only human and having that implied authority may help to impose some clubhouse discipline that has been lacking. Instead of asking, suggesting, hinting or even begging he mearly has to express himself.

How many times did Narron talk about PTGTRW and defense yet nothing ever changed. I'm sure he didn't stop talking about it behind the clubhouse doors, yet it didn't have an impact, the players didn't listen or they outright defied him.

Now Dusty could totally blow that implied authority. And he may use his implied authority to do wacky things, but in theory, I can see Dusty being able to adress issues much easier and quicker over a Narron, Miley or maybe even PMac type.

I think there really are three aspects in a manager's job description:

1. lineup/manage the staff;
2. manage the clubhouse;
3. manage the media;

Dusty's major flaws are related to the first responsibility IMHO. He excels at the second responsibility. Basically as a tactician he'll cost the team runs but in general most managers aren't all that and a bag of chips in this regard so it remains to be seen how much this really hurts. He's probably good for + runs regarding his ability to manage the clubhouse because guys tend to play for him. Probably the sum of the effects of responsibilities one and two roughly even out or count as a slight positive.

To me, it's responsibility three that I am actually excited about because it will be refreshing to have a manager that manages the media well for a change.

[westofyou]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07293/827065-63.stm

Huntington acknowledged yesterday that the Pirates had Dusty Baker and Trey Hillman on their potential candidate list, but he wouldn't say how high or low on the list they were.

Baker has agreed to manage the Cincinnati Reds. Hillman yesterday signed to manage the Kansas City Royals.

Joe Torre, who won't return to manage the New York Yankees, also won't manage the Pirates, Huntington said.

Huntington said the Pirates will honor Major League Baseball's self-imposed ban on teams announcing major decisions during the World Series, which begins Wednesday.

"I know people are thinking we're taking a ridiculous amount of time on this," Huntington said. "But I think there's more anxiety externally than internally. I just want to get it right."