$22.5 Million dollars

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by mth123

Why do you think Wolf or the like would take your money as opposed to some one else's? Its likely that an even worse deal would need to be handed out to get an even remotely comparable pitcher. Your other choice would be to dumpster dive for a cheap gas can like say Josh Fogg.

You take a guy who's down on his luck and he looks at Cincinnati as a legitimate place to get a chance to pitch every 5th day. He looks around and says "all I have to do is beat out Josh Fogg and Matt Belise and I'm golden."

I'm Ok with Arroyo's contract this year but it could become an albatross in the next couple of years.

If he pitches 200 innings, I agree the contract is not an albatross. I'm just not confident that's what we'll get. Let's face it, when we acquired him he was a #6 starter (for Boston).

[mth123]

Originally Posted by Sea Ray

You take a guy who's down on his luck and he looks at Cincinnati as a legitimate place to get a chance to pitch every 5th day. He looks around and says "all I have to do is beat out Josh Fogg and Matt Belise and I'm golden."

I'm Ok with Arroyo's contract this year but it could become an albatross in the next couple of years.

If he pitches 200 innings, I agree the contract is not an albatross. I'm just not confident that's what we'll get. Let's face it, when we acquired him he was a #6 starter (for Boston).

So in previous years its been even easier to win a spot in the Reds rotation yet who are all these pitchers of Arroyo's caliber that signed of their own free will? Paul Wilson? Eric Milton? Jimmy Haynes? Josh Fogg? The Reds pursued a lot of better caliber guys and ended up paying even more for the consolation prize. That is what you get usually when "you take a guy who's down on his luck and he looks at Cincinnati as a legitimate place to get a chance to pitch every 5th day." Arroyo pitched 240 effective innings in 2006 and 210 effective innings in 2007. He is just the type of mid rotation vet that a team with a bunch of high ceiling kids should be counting on for stability while the others sort themselves out.

I see and don't completely disagree with the point that Arroyo gets pricey over the next few years. I also think that he's piled a lot of innings on that arm and is a bit of a risk and probably won't be a bargain even if he's decent, but lesser pitchers make more. I'm pretty cost conscious and don't like to see the team hand out wasteful contracts, but the whole point is not to overpay for things that you can get anyway for cheap so that money is available to overpay a bit for things you have to have that are going to cost you. Its foolish to pay $3 Million for replacement level guys like Stanton and Cormier, but the reason its bad is that it prevents the Reds from investing in things it takes to win (IMO these things are effective rotation starters and middle of the order bats that don't kill you on defense). But starting pitching of the caliber that Arroyo has provided is not the kind of thing you can get for cheap anyway. Splurging on a guy like Arroyo is exactly the type of investment that you pinch the pennies elsewhere for. And the realization still hasn't hit everyone that it would probably cost more to get some one who is not as good on the free agent market.

As far as Arroyo's current problems go, I think he needs to be evaluated carefully to be sure he's healthy. Loss of command is sometimes an early warning sign of reduced arm strength and is many times an indicator of some type of injury about to rear its head. Sudden loss of ability to throw an effective breaking ball is many times a symptom of looming elbow issues. I'd give him some rest as a precaution coupled with a thorough exam and see how he bounces back. If he goes south, it was still a better way to spend the money then spreading it around in two or three million dollar chunks that likely would lead to more Stantonesque deals. Arroyo's deal does not belong on a list of ill advised wastes like Stanton, Castro and Cormier.

[Sea Ray]

Today we get news that WK has been fired. This would not surprise me and I'm of the opinion that money had a lot to do with it. Castellini has given him money to increase payroll but the Reds' fortunes have not changed. He's blown way too much money on the players mentioned to start this thread and I think Cast has had enough. A good owner says "here's the jack now go build me a winner." Well WK blew the jack on marginal vets while talented cheap players rot in the minors. I bet Cast is tired of eating contracts like Frenchy, Stanton and Castro.

Good move Cast! If it were my checkbook, I'd have fired him too.