Team USA Basketball Thread

[improbus]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

The defense that is played now is the worst I have ever seen. Outside of Bryant and Wade I wouldn't trust a defensive player on team USA. It would take a very good team to beat USA the way they are playing now but throw a Magic or Stockton on the court and the current team's gambles would be capitalized on over and over again.

I think another big change to the game today has been the weight room. Don't get me wrong, it was around in the early 90's, but not to the extent it is now. James and Howard are huge. Their strength can make for their lack of fundamentals. They are able to overpower most people in the league and maintain focus when they assume contact. A difference would be a guy like Malone who wouldn't be afraid to knock a player down. You go into the paint against a guy like Ewing or Malone and you will pay for it.

The shooter and the mid range game is a lost art. Why don't you see players like Bird in the league anymore? Jordon was great at hitting the mid range jumper. In today's game you hardly ever see set up inside the 3 point line but outside of the paint. It just doesn't happen. Prince and Rip Hamilton have made a living for the Pistons by hitting the mid range game.

The PG position has changed drastically. IMO Iverson changed the way the position was played. Gone are the days of Stockton and here are the days of Iverson. The PG psotion has become more flashy and more of a scoring position. Kidd is one of the last holdovers of the pass first shoot second PG.

Lack of development has hurt many of these players. Most of the best pro players spend less than a year in college basketball. Their fundamentals are unrefinded. Most of the 90 stars spend 3+ years in college. There has been a definate change in the way players are drafted now. Players are drafted more on potential right now.

I for one think the game was better during Jordan's hey day. Just a personal opinion. To be honest I haven't watched a complete NBA game since Jordan retired. I love watching college basketball but I can't get into the pro game anymore.

A few things.
1) The correlation between 3's and winning is strong, while the correlation between mid-range shots and winning is small. So, mid-rangers have been devalued like BA has in baseball.
2) As far as knocking people down, the NBA will suspend people for anything. Remember McHale's clothesline of Kurt Rambis? That would have had McHale out of the next three games today and there would be an Outside the Lines special on violence in the NBA. So players today have to be careful.
3) You may have been right about PG's in 1996 when teams were looking for "combo-guards" like Steve Francis and Stephon Marbury, but not now. Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Andre Miller, and Jose Calderon look to pass first.
4) Over the last two or three years, teams have shied away from "potential". I think the Darko and Tskitishvili scared everyone to their senses.
5) I love college hoops, but more for the passion and drive of the fans and players and less for the quality of the basketball. There are way too many possessions in CBB where the ball doesn't enter the paint for 25-30 seconds, three's are too short (which is changing), and coaches are too powerful.

[Hoosier Red]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

The defense that is played now is the worst I have ever seen. Outside of Bryant and Wade I wouldn't trust a defensive player on team USA. It would take a very good team to beat USA the way they are playing now but throw a Magic or Stockton on the court and the current team's gambles would be capitalized on over and over again.

I think another big change to the game today has been the weight room. Don't get me wrong, it was around in the early 90's, but not to the extent it is now. James and Howard are huge. Their strength can make for their lack of fundamentals. They are able to overpower most people in the league and maintain focus when they assume contact. A difference would be a guy like Malone who wouldn't be afraid to knock a player down. You go into the paint against a guy like Ewing or Malone and you will pay for it.

The shooter and the mid range game is a lost art. Why don't you see players like Bird in the league anymore? Jordon was great at hitting the mid range jumper. In today's game you hardly ever see set up inside the 3 point line but outside of the paint. It just doesn't happen. Prince and Rip Hamilton have made a living for the Pistons by hitting the mid range game.

The PG position has changed drastically. IMO Iverson changed the way the position was played. Gone are the days of Stockton and here are the days of Iverson. The PG psotion has become more flashy and more of a scoring position. Kidd is one of the last holdovers of the pass first shoot second PG.

I for one think the game was better during Jordan's hey day. Just a personal opinion. To be honest I haven't watched a complete NBA game since Jordan retired. I love watching college basketball but I can't get into the pro game anymore.

As Team Selig pointed out, PG play, at least the elite PG's isn't dramatically different as far as pass first, shoot second. I think the pendulum swung first to the score first guards(the first generation to grow up with a three point shot in college and high school) and now has adapted back to good shooters who will pass and involve teammates.

As for the mid range jumper, I think your point about the weight room goes to this demise. Forwards are so much bigger, stronger and quicker than 10 years ago, unless everything is synched just right, the shot won't be open. If you're going to take a contested shot from 15 feet, you might as well spread the court out and take less contested ones from 3 point line and get an extra point for it.

It's a shame you haven't seen a full game since Jordan's retirement(his second retirement I assume.) I think the game played at it's highest level is actually better now than any time I've been alive.
Of course living in Indianapolis, I don't know what it's like for the game to be played at its highest level either.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by Hoosier Red

As Team Selig pointed out, PG play, at least the elite PG's isn't dramatically different as far as pass first, shoot second. I think the pendulum swung first to the score first guards(the first generation to grow up with a three point shot in college and high school) and now has adapted back to good shooters who will pass and involve teammates.

As for the mid range jumper, I think your point about the weight room goes to this demise. Forwards are so much bigger, stronger and quicker than 10 years ago, unless everything is synched just right, the shot won't be open. If you're going to take a contested shot from 15 feet, you might as well spread the court out and take less contested ones from 3 point line and get an extra point for it.

It's a shame you haven't seen a full game since Jordan's retirement(his second retirement I assume.) I think the game played at it's highest level is actually better now than any time I've been alive.
Of course living in Indianapolis, I don't know what it's like for the game to be played at its highest level either.

Actually I believe it was his third. I watched him from time to time playing with the Wizards.

IMO the game is played so fundamentally unsound that it bothers me. I also think that the players are so much more athletic that enables the game to be played sloppier. I think one of the reasons I don't like the game is that they players are just that good. It might sound odd but that could contribute to it. I also like watching good offensive and defesive sets. The NBA is too much two man basketball. I hate cherry picking and not hustling up and down the court and you see way too much of that in the NBA until the playoffs.

I also think the fact that I grew up without a professional team in the city doesn't help. I love to watch D Wade play, but he didn't play much last season, and when he is playing balls to the wall it doesn't seem like the other player are. The talent is better in the NBA now more so than it every has been but I don't think the quailty of basketball is near what it was 10-15 years ago.

[MasonBuzz3]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

The defense that is played now is the worst I have ever seen. Outside of Bryant and Wade I wouldn't trust a defensive player on team USA. It would take a very good team to beat USA the way they are playing now but throw a Magic or Stockton on the court and the current team's gambles would be capitalized on over and over again.

I think another big change to the game today has been the weight room. Don't get me wrong, it was around in the early 90's, but not to the extent it is now. James and Howard are huge. Their strength can make for their lack of fundamentals. They are able to overpower most people in the league and maintain focus when they assume contact. A difference would be a guy like Malone who wouldn't be afraid to knock a player down. You go into the paint against a guy like Ewing or Malone and you will pay for it.

The shooter and the mid range game is a lost art. Why don't you see players like Bird in the league anymore? Jordon was great at hitting the mid range jumper. In today's game you hardly ever see set up inside the 3 point line but outside of the paint. It just doesn't happen. Prince and Rip Hamilton have made a living for the Pistons by hitting the mid range game.

The PG position has changed drastically. IMO Iverson changed the way the position was played. Gone are the days of Stockton and here are the days of Iverson. The PG psotion has become more flashy and more of a scoring position. Kidd is one of the last holdovers of the pass first shoot second PG.

Lack of development has hurt many of these players. Most of the best pro players spend less than a year in college basketball. Their fundamentals are unrefinded. Most of the 90 stars spend 3+ years in college. There has been a definate change in the way players are drafted now. Players are drafted more on potential right now.

I for one think the game was better during Jordan's hey day. Just a personal opinion. To be honest I haven't watched a complete NBA game since Jordan retired. I love watching college basketball but I can't get into the pro game anymore.

just a couple of things:
You might be watching a different team than I have seen. The only defensive liability on the team is Melo. Off of the top of my head; Lebron, Kobe, Bosh have been dominant on the defensive end.
On fundamentals, you mentioned Lebron and Howard. Remember those two players are 23 and 22, respectively. I would argue that Lebron is far more fundamentally sound than given credit for, but regardless they are both college age kids.
The mid-range game might not be as prevalent as it once was. But in the international game, where the US players are far more athletic and gifted, why shoot the 15 footer when you can get to the hoop for a higher percentage dunk or lay-up? Also with the shorter 3 point line, a 3 in the Olympics is almost a mid-range shot for the NBA players. Notice Kobe shooting from what seems to be Shanghai today.
The PG position has been covered already, so I'll move on to the drafting on potential leads to lack of fundamentals. I will not argue that many kids that come into the NBA early are not ready for that level of basketball. But take a look at Kobe or Lebron. What could they really have learned at a college that they haven't learned in the NBA? Would Lebron spending 3 years at Akron, OSU, or wherever really have made him any better? I'd say no, same for Kobe or Howard.

Anyways back to the Olympics, I am so excited to see the US go up against Ginobli and co in basically a Gold Medal game

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

IMO the game is played so fundamentally unsound that it bothers me. I also think that the players are so much more athletic that enables the game to be played sloppier. I think one of the reasons I don't like the game is that they players are just that good. It might sound odd but that could contribute to it. I also like watching good offensive and defesive sets. The NBA is too much two man basketball. I hate cherry picking and not hustling up and down the court and you see way too much of that in the NBA until the playoffs.

We may pine for the good fundamentals and all that stuff but if that was what people really wanted, they would show Ivy League games on ESPN instead of Duke-North Carolina. That's not to say that that kind of basketball can't be appreciated but the other end of the spectrum is what the people want.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by Chip R

We may pine for the good fundamentals and all that stuff but if that was what people really wanted, they would show Ivy League games on ESPN instead of Duke-North Carolina. That's not to say that that kind of basketball can't be appreciated but the other end of the spectrum is what the people want.

Actually as much as I dispise Duke, they are one of the most fundamentally sound teams out there.

[improbus]

The difference is in the way defense is played. The pressure on the ball is very high and the players are bigger, quicker, and stronger than ever. It is hard to run those intricate sets when you have 6'7'' shooting guards with a 7'0'' wingspan getting in the way. It's hard to make those old school bounce passes around those guys.

[Roy Tucker]

I, for one, think a USA '92 vs. USA '08 would be a heckuva game.

It's a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy about ESPN. Probably 90% of their highlights are dunks. People go "wooooo" for dunks. People smile and nod for a good backdoor cut and pass.

The game changed with the increased prevelance of the African-American athlete in hoops starting with Texas Western in '66.

[Chip R]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Actually as much as I dispise Duke, they are one of the most fundamentally sound teams out there.

Yes, but I think my point still stands.

One factor that I think no one has brought up is the emergence of the shot clock. We've had the shot clock in college for about a generation now and a few years less than that for high school. You can't walk the ball up the court and wait for a minute or longer to get the perfect shot. By the time you get the ball to half court, in college you have around 25 seconds to shoot. In the pros, less than that.

[ochre]

meh. The '08 team would roll them. Those guys on the '92 team are all like 50 years old and stuff.

[TeamSelig]

Originally Posted by improbus

A few things.
2) As far as knocking people down, the NBA will suspend people for anything. Remember McHale's clothesline of Kurt Rambis? That would have had McHale out of the next three games today and there would be an Outside the Lines special on violence in the NBA. So players today have to be careful.

Yep. Too many players getting hurt. They've done a pretty good job protecting players, but not to the point of babying them IMO. Just ask Lebron and the Wizards. He took a beating, but when it went too far, they were punished.

[MasonBuzz3]

10:15 am EST for USA - Argentina
I personally am calling for a close 1st quarter, but the USA winning by 22-28 points. Ginobli will find out that this is a step up from the NBA

[cumberlandreds]

Originally Posted by MasonBuzz3

10:15 am EST for USA - Argentina
I personally am calling for a close 1st quarter, but the USA winning by 22-28 points. Ginobli will find out that this is a step up from the NBA

The U.S. lead 30-11 after one. This is ovah! Spain will be the next and last victim.

[improbus]

Carmelo is trying to get Argentina back into the game. I hope Ginobili is OK. As much as I hate the Spurs, I appreciate him.

[reds44]

37-25 now