Dunn traded to DBacks

[VR]

If it's Owings....he'll be batting 3rd for the Reds. Right between Duane Walker and Paul Householder.

[Ron Madden]

Originally Posted by wheels

Because we don't know yet.

All they can give us is:

"We traded a player that hit 270 homers for us, but we can't tell you who we've accquired..."

Do you honsetly believe that the two players are going to be anything of value?

You know what? I don't need to really logically justify my emotions right now.

I'm pissed. Plain and simple.

Me too Wheels, Me too.

[StillFunkyB]

My initial reaction wasn't very good either. I'm going to wait and see who the other two players will be before I get completely PO'd.

Reading the articles, one thing that glaringly stood out was Dunn's willingness to play other positions. Funny how now he is willing to play wherever the TEAM wants him to play now. I believe his exact words were "I'll catch if they want me to catch".

[mth123]

I made it through 66 pages. The season can resume now.

I wanted the team to keep Dunn. I doubt the PTBNL will be much to be excited about and have little faith that the team can adequately fill multiple holes spreading Dunn's money to multiple $4 to $5 Million players. $4 to $5 Million players can be productive if they are guys on the way up the pay scale who happen to be at that level now. Buying them on the open market fills the roster with Ryan Freels abd Jay Paytons.

I guess you can trade for a few, but the team has little talent to deal and would simply be opening holes elsewhere to acquire any. I still thought with Dunn and the guys still here the team was only a move or two away from being decent, but with Dunn's bat gone, I see some lean years on the horizon unless Jay Bruce and Joey Votto become Manny and Ortiz offensively next year.

My optimism was heightened by the Griffey and Ross departures. Dunn's departure is deflating.

[OldXOhio]

Originally Posted by flyer85

The question is does the FO have a big enough pair of balls to finish what they started and finish tearing it down(meaning Arroyo, Harang and Phillips go before next season.)

Still not understanding why Harang is being mentioned in discussions such as these?

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by traderumor

That's a strawman. No one is saying with the whole culture/leadership angle that it is about "wanting it really, really bad." When I hear repeatedly players saying things like "this isn't like other places, there's not the same pressure to win," you have a culture problem. Is Dunn/Griffey promoting that culture? I don't know exactly, but that does seem to be their approach to the game...do my best and if it doesn't get it done, well, toss me a cold one and let's come back tomorrow. Dunn himself said recently that he noticed a change in people caring about losing. That speaks volumes and is a real problem for a sports franchise in any sport. That is called apathy, and it needs to pulled up by its roots, not watered and fertilized with $15-20M a year.

So with all the problems with the Reds including horrable scounting, bizzare ownership, several shakey GM's in a row, a lack of pitching, craptastic defense, poorly built roster, the one thing you can key on is that Dunn "didn't want it bad enough".

Wow. Grasping at straws comes to mind.

Please note the various interviews with Dunner where he mentions he is excited to play on a 1st place team. Doesn't sound like a big loaf to me.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by Krusty

The Reds need to bring players in with winning attitudes.

Guys who "know how to win".

Blech.

I suppose cancer researchers haven't found a cure because they "don't want it bad enough"?

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

Duncan, Doran, Hatcher, etc. are great for chemistry when you have Davis, Larkin, O'Neil, Sabo, Rijo, Browning, Myers, Dibble, Charlton. The problem of the Reds of recent vintage is the lack of guys from that group, not the lack of Billy Dorans and Rick Mahlers.

You can't fret about the players who put you over the top when you are sitting at the base of the mountain.

Excellent point. People always want to gloss over the core of tallent when refering to player X who this team needs to "put them over the top".

The equation is 95% tallent + 5% clubhouse culture. You can have the 95% without the culture and it doesn't matter. There is simply too much tallent to be stoped by team mates that don't get along or players who are goofs (see Yankees, Rameriz Manny). But if you only have the 5% who cares? All the hustle and rah rah in the world, despite playing very well to the Cincy fanbase, woln't make up for the lack of tallent.

I'm pro-clubhouse culture, to a point. But trying to make the case that we need a "team leader" to push this team towards winning is idioctic at worst and sunshine & rainbows at best.

This isn't the Bad News Bears who needed the one element to get them turned around. That was a movie.

[wolfboy]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

Guys who "know how to win".

Blech.

I suppose cancer researchers haven't found a cure because they "don't want it bad enough"?

Amen.

[RedLegSuperStar]

My guess is Owings/Scherzer and Max Castillo

[traderumor]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

So with all the problems with the Reds including horrable scounting, bizzare ownership, several shakey GM's in a row, a lack of pitching, craptastic defense, poorly built roster, the one thing you can key on is that Dunn "didn't want it bad enough".

Wow. Grasping at straws comes to mind.

Please note the various interviews with Dunner where he mentions he is excited to play on a 1st place team. Doesn't sound like a big loaf to me.

You really couldn't mischaracterize my comments on this subject in this thread much more than that. Notice I did not assign some arbitrary percentages like 95/5. Really, what would you expect anyone, besides Leon, to say in this situation. "They're in first place? I didn't notice. That's cool. But I'm more worried about the beer being cold after the game."

All I have said is that there is a clear apathy with the squad and has been for years. Dunn noticing recently that "gee, we're upset that we lost" is a glaring sign of his own apathy toward winning. It is akin to Seinfeld identifying a clear, salty discharge from his eyes as tears resulting from being upset. It was something he had not experienced before. Arroyo has made similar comments, as did Danny Graves.

And again, I am not saying that THE Reds problem has been "chemistry." All I am saying is that folks like you are on the opposite extreme of its importance, when the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, as it is with most things. Your attempt to minimize something unquantifiable with some arbitrary figure is not an argument. Of course, I suspect the very attempt to quantify something unquantifiable reveals why you attempt to minimize the factor. Some are not comfortable if they cannot quantify a variable.

[Unassisted]

Originally Posted by OldXOhio

Still not understanding why Harang is being mentioned in discussions such as these?

He wasn't on Walt's list of untouchables.

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by traderumor

And again, I am not saying that THE Reds problem has been "chemistry." All I am saying is that folks like you are on the opposite extreme of its importance, when the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, as it is with most things. Your attempt to minimize something unquantifiable with some arbitrary figure is not an argument. Of course, I susupect the very attempt to quantify something unquantifiable reveals why you attempt to minimize the factor. Some are not comfortable if they cannot quantify a variable.

The irony is I am a big believer in team chemistry and that fuzzy clubhouse stuff. Hell, I've agrued FOR it many times in my early RZ carear.

Of coruse you want to paint me as a "stats" person which is equally laughable as I know how to interpret exactly one set of numbers. Wheeeee I love numbers! Ask RMR, Steel or Cyclone if they consider me a "stats" person. They might choke out a "no" in between fits of laughter. Of corse, what you are doing is trying to minimize my response and change the subject because your position is untenable. Perhaps a comment about my spelling is in order? Serriously, you couldn't be more off-base in your attempt to shift the argument.

What you identify as "apathy" I identify as "incompetance" or "inablity to acomplish a goal" or "dear in the headlights". I don't doubt that those guys want to win, they just don't know how to (because they can't). It's not because they don't understand that scoring runs is important. You want to defeat insecurity in a child? Help them acomplish something on their own. You want to destroy apthy on a baseball team? Give them the tallent to win.

You can try to hang this around Dunn neck all you want. As if he became Judge Wapner in the clubhouse BPhil would learn to lay off the down-away slider or EE wouldn't wing a ball into the stands now and again? And with this group, even if Dunn became super-clubhouse-leader-guy what's that going to do? Win 3 more games? 5? Whoopie. And what about Harrang? He isn't exactly a fire & brimstone guy. Why haven't you dinged him?

You worry about the "chemistry" after you assemble the tallent. Even then you can live without it if you have enough tallent.

[Wheelhouse]

If the rumor is true and the other players are on the DBacks' 40-man, then Jocketty is a hero. The Reds don't want Dunn, and probably would not have been able to offer him arbitration, leaving them with nothing. If they get a package as rumored plus save $2MM this year, it's a brilliant move.

[membengal]

I am old enough to vividly remember 1982 and 1983. Let's hope Jocketty can keep the bottom from being quite that low. Not counting on it though. Where is Bruce Berenyi nowadays?