Who is Redszone's #15 prospect?

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by TRF

Harang gives up his fai share of HR's too. If you keep guys off base that doesn't hurt as much.

That is true. Maloney doesn't have near the stuff that Harang does though.

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

Roenicke still has a far higher ceiling but until he can at least get 1 more pitch working for him he is what he is, a guy we have all seen before who has that dominating pitch, nothing to go with it and never finds it.

Roenicke as someone who "never finds it."

Roenicke has been highly effective at every level. BA voted him the best relief candidate in High A FSL in 2007. He has a big time fastball which puts him in the class of potential top late inning relievers and has harnessed it well in the upper minors.

He's more than potential, he's performance. Take the time to look at the numbers -- he's advanced quicky and done well at every level.

Very few relievers have two great pitches. It's just a question of knowing when to go with the secondary pitch and when to stick to the fastball. Roenicke is almost there. I saw his September callup, he didn't seem comfortable and didn't get much of a chance. I think those few innings are meaningless.

I can see folks putting him behind Lotzkar and Stewart -- I think it's close and don't necessarily agree, but I can see it. But behind Maloney and Ramirez, nah.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

That is true. Maloney doesn't have near the stuff that Harang does though.

Harang at this point didn't have near the stuff that Harang does now. Plus Maloney is LH. Not saying he will exceed or even equal Harang, but there is a lot to like about him.

[LoganBuck]

Originally Posted by TRF

Harang gives up his fai share of HR's too. If you keep guys off base that doesn't hurt as much.

What about Maloney's 88 mph fastball? Does that portend success at the next level? My guess is major league hitters would tee off on him. Those 27 homers translate to 35 at the major league level. I don't see him keeping runners off base.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by TRF

Harang at this point didn't have near the stuff that Harang does now. Plus Maloney is LH. Not saying he will exceed or even equal Harang, but there is a lot to like about him.

Maloney throws 87-90 MPH. Harang has always had much strong velocity than that. Harang never had HR problems in the minor leagues either. In 307 innings between A+ and AA he allowed 19 HR's. Maloney simply doesn't offer the same projection that Harang did. His numbers are slightly better than Harangs were in the minors (slightly better WHIP 1.20 to 1.23) and better K rate, but Harang had the better walk rate, better HR rate, better stuff, better size and Harang pitched 200 innings in the Texas League and the PCL (notorious hitters leagues) while Maloney has never pitched in a hitters league.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by LoganBuck

What about Maloney's 88 mph fastball? Does that portend success at the next level? My guess is major league hitters would tee off on him. Those 27 homers translate to 35 at the major league level. I don't see him keeping runners off base.

It isn't how hard you throw. Bailey is an example of that. It's the difference in the speed of your FB and your offspeed stuff, plus movement. Maloney doesn't walk a lot of guys, doesn't give up a lot of hits. He can succeed at the major league level.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by TRF

It isn't how hard you throw. Bailey is an example of that. It's the difference in the speed of your FB and your offspeed stuff, plus movement. Maloney doesn't walk a lot of guys, doesn't give up a lot of hits. He can succeed at the major league level.

He doesn't give up a lot of hits to minor leaguers. Neither did Jeremy Sowers.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by Kc61

Roenicke as someone who "never finds it."

Roenicke has been highly effective at every level. BA voted him the best relief candidate in High A in 2007. He has a big time fastball which puts him in the class of potential top late inning relievers and has harnessed it well in the upper minors.

He's more than potential, he's performance. Take the time to look at the numbers -- he's advanced quicky and done well at every level.

Very few relievers have two great pitches. It's just a question of knowing when to go with the secondary pitch and when to stick to the fastball. Roenicke is almost there. I saw his September callup, he didn't seem comfortable and didn't get much of a chance. I think those few innings are meaningless.

I can see folks putting him behind Lotzkar and Stewart -- I think it's close and don't necessarily agree, but I can see it. But behind Maloney and Ramirez, nah.

But what even respectable secondary pitch does he have to keep 'em honest? You can't just throw any old pitch up there it has to be a somewhat quality pitch. Otherwise the opponent is gonna sit on one or the other.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

He doesn't give up a lot of hits to minor leaguers. Neither did Jeremy Sowers.

Neither did Tim Lincecum. The answer could very well bee in the middle.

At some point results just matter.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by TRF

Neither did Tim Lincecum. The answer could very well bee in the middle.

At some point results just matter.

Except Maloney is a lot more Sowers than he is Lincecum and its absurd to try and use that as a comparison. Sowers is a soft tossing lefty who had some control in the minors but didn't project all to well. Lincecum is an extremely hard throwing righty who got better in the control department as he moved up and projected very well for as long as he could stay healthy.

[SMcGavin]

Pitchers cannot control the percentage of fly balls that leave the park. The only ways that pitchers control their HR rates are to strike out batters so less balls are put in play, or force the balls that are in play to be hit on the ground.

When Matt Maloney allowed only 5 HR in 169 IP in 2006, it didn't mean he had a magical ability to prevent fly balls from going out. When he gave up 18 HR last year, it didn't mean he had converted from being the best in world at preventing HRs to suddenly being the worst at it. In 2006 he was really lucky. Last year he was really unlucky. Neither has any bearing on his future.

And another in a long line of "disproving ridiculous comparisons to Matt Maloney":

Jeremy Sowers, age 24, AAA: 5.7 K/9
Matt Maloney, age 24, AAA: 8.4 K/9

They're twins I tell you!

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by SMcGavin

Pitchers cannot control the percentage of fly balls that leave the park. The only ways that pitchers control their HR rates are to strike out batters so less balls are put in play, or force the balls that are in play to be hit on the ground.

When Matt Maloney allowed only 5 HR in 169 IP in 2006, it didn't mean he had a magical ability to prevent fly balls from going out. When he gave up 18 HR last year, it didn't mean he had converted from being the best in world at preventing HRs to suddenly being the worst at it. In 2006 he was really lucky. Last year he was really unlucky. Neither has any bearing on his future.

And another in a long line of "disproving ridiculous comparisons to Matt Maloney":

Jeremy Sowers, age 24, AAA: 5.7 K/9
Matt Maloney, age 24, AAA: 8.4 K/9

They're twins I tell you!

A pitcher can control it somewhere. In 2006 Maloney was playing in Low A against guys who don't have power. in 2008 he was playing against grown men.

As for your Sowers numbers.... those were after he had already thrown 90 innings in the majors. Sowers from age 22-23 he allowed 219 hits in 256.2 innings and he struck out 203 batters and walked just 58 batters. Eventually it all caught up to him because he didn't have a plus pitch and threw in the high 80's. Guys that don't have good velocity better have a plus pitch to go with very good control or they are going to be in trouble in the majors. Sowers stuff is very comparable to that of Matt Maloney. Very comparable in both speeds of pitches thrown, as well as all 4 of the same pitches.

[SMcGavin]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

A pitcher can control it somewhere.

Nope. It's chance.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by SMcGavin

Nope. It's chance.

Its not chance. You are trying to tell me its chance that really good pitchers give up fewer HR's than really bad ones? There is a range at which is generally acknowledge as average in the majors ~11% per FB. The problem is, in the minor leagues, the talent level isn't even close to being as close as it is in the majors. In the minor leagues there are some guys head and shoulders above others in talent and some guys way below other guys. In the majors there is lucky and unlucky to a point, but the guy that gives up a HR 14% per FB for his career, he hasn't been unlucky his whole career, he probably has been bad his whole career. The majors and minors are two entirely different animals. Using major league idea's as far as numbers go to suggest something about minor league numbers doesn't really work.

[camisadelgolf]

I think the problem is that you two have different definitions of 'chance'. Let's move on, shall we?