Career Win Shares

[M2]

As a general rule, 300 Win Shares puts a player in Hall of Fame territory. It's not a guarantee, but it does merit a conversation. Here's a list of everyone at 250+ as of the end of this season.

426 - Gary Sheffield
407 - Alex Rodriguez
405 - Frank Thomas
401 - Ken Griffey Jr.
395 - Greg Maddux
373 - Manny Ramirez
353 - Chipper Jones
350 - Jim Thome
344 - Jeff Kent
327 - Randy Johnson
326 - Luis Gonzalez
325 - Pudge Rodriguez
320 - Derek Jeter
315 - Tom Glavine
306 - Jason Giambi
305 - Carlos Delgado
302 - Vald Guerrero
301 - Bob Abreu
301 - Jim Edmonds
296 - Brian Giles
288 - John Smoltz
286 - Albert Pujols
284 - Moises Alou
274 - Mike Mussina
266 - Todd Helton
264 - Scott Rolen
263 - Omar Vizquel
257 - Johnny Damon
256 - Andruw Jones
253 - Carlos Beltran
251 - Pedro Martinez

[*BaseClogger*]

After Randy Johnson's 327 WS I would say only Pudge, Jeter, Glavine, Guerrero, Smoltz, Pujols, and Pedro should have a significant chance of getting in...

[Will M]

Originally Posted by M2

As a general rule, 300 Win Shares puts a player in Hall of Fame territory. It's not a guarantee, but it does merit a conversation. Here's a list of everyone at 250+ as of the end of this season.

426 - Gary Sheffield
407 - Alex Rodriguez
405 - Frank Thomas
401 - Ken Griffey Jr.
395 - Greg Maddux
373 - Manny Ramirez
353 - Chipper Jones
350 - Jim Thome
344 - Jeff Kent
327 - Randy Johnson
326 - Luis Gonzalez
325 - Pudge Rodriguez
320 - Derek Jeter
315 - Tom Glavine
306 - Jason Giambi
305 - Carlos Delgado
302 - Vald Guerrero
301 - Bob Abreu
301 - Jim Edmonds
296 - Brian Giles
288 - John Smoltz
286 - Albert Pujols
284 - Moises Alou
274 - Mike Mussina
266 - Todd Helton
264 - Scott Rolen
263 - Omar Vizquel
257 - Johnny Damon
256 - Andruw Jones
253 - Carlos Beltran
251 - Pedro Martinez

is it me or are there a lot of DHs on this list. does 'win shares' only count offense?

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by Will M

is it me or are there a lot of DHs on this list. does 'win shares' only count offense?

There are also Defensive WinShares.

[*BaseClogger*]

Originally Posted by Will M

is it me or are there a lot of DHs on this list. does 'win shares' only count offense?

I see four guys who played a lot of 1B and later on moved to DH...

[M2]

Originally Posted by *BaseClogger*

After Randy Johnson's 327 WS I would say only Pudge, Jeter, Glavine, Guerrero, Smoltz, Pujols, and Pedro should have a significant chance of getting in...

Carlos Beltran's still a relatively young man (31). He should rack up another 100 WS easy before he retires. Abreu's also the kind of hitter who could thrive into his 40s. He's currently 34.

Vizquel may make it too, prompting Reds fans to ask, "Then why isn't Dave Concepcion in Cooperstown?"

[Will M]

Originally Posted by *BaseClogger*

I see four guys who played a lot of 1B and later on moved to DH...

Gary Sheffield didn't DH much but should have.
Frank Thomas was a DH his whole career.
Manny Ramirez is a DH trying to play LF.
Jim Thome DHed most of his career.
Jason Giambi is a DH.
Carlos Delgado was/is a DH trying to play 1B.
Moises Alou was a DH trying to play LF.

On the list the only guys known to play great defense in their prime are
Ken Griffey Jr. , Pudge Rodriguez, Vald Guerrero, Jim Edmonds,
Scott Rolen, Omar Vizquel & Andruw Jones.

[*BaseClogger*]

Originally Posted by Will M

Gary Sheffield didn't DH much but should have.
Frank Thomas was a DH his whole career.
Manny Ramirez is a DH trying to play LF.
Jim Thome DHed most of his career.
Jason Giambi is a DH.
Carlos Delgado was/is a DH trying to play 1B.
Moises Alou was a DH trying to play LF.

On the list the only guys known to play great defense in their prime are
Ken Griffey Jr. , Pudge Rodriguez, Vald Guerrero, Jim Edmonds,
Scott Rolen, Omar Vizquel & Andruw Jones.

Not all players play great defense (just read the Dunn thread). Thomas actually spent the first half of his career playing a majority of his games at 1B and by some accounts was a decent fielder there. Ramirez is on of the best hitters of all time. Jim Thome played 1B most of his career, and surprisingly has played nearly as many games at 3B as DH. Delgado played 1B. Alou played LF. There are a plethora of Hall of Famers who were great hitters and weren't good fielders. I don't see how you can discredit the guys who played the field for 20 years, although perhaps were mediocre0, but where Hall of Fame hitters...

[M2]

Originally Posted by Will M

Gary Sheffield didn't DH much but should have.
Frank Thomas was a DH his whole career.
Manny Ramirez is a DH trying to play LF.
Jim Thome DHed most of his career.
Jason Giambi is a DH.
Carlos Delgado was/is a DH trying to play 1B.
Moises Alou was a DH trying to play LF.

On the list the only guys known to play great defense in their prime are
Ken Griffey Jr. , Pudge Rodriguez, Vald Guerrero, Jim Edmonds,
Scott Rolen, Omar Vizquel & Andruw Jones.

Thomas won two MVPs, both as a 1B.

Only this season did Thome's number of games at DH exceed his 3B total. He played most of his career at 1B.

Giambi's spent more than twice as much time at 1B as DH. Delgado's played nearly 10 times as much 1B as DH. Sheffield and Manny have been OFs. Just because none were great fielders doesn't make them wholly incapable with the leather. By that same logic, Tony Perez was a DH.

Alou was a pretty fine fielder in his younger days. He, Marquis Grissom and Larry Walker with the Expos in '92-'94 were one of the best fielding OFs I've ever seen (second only to the 2003 Mariners). Probably the only reason why Alou didn't win a GG in the early '90s was a guy named Barry Bonds.

[johngalt]

Anybody have Larkin's career total?

[Will M]

Originally Posted by *BaseClogger*

Not all players play great defense (just read the Dunn thread). Thomas actually spent the first half of his career playing a majority of his games at 1B and by some accounts was a decent fielder there. Ramirez is on of the best hitters of all time. Jim Thome played 1B most of his career, and surprisingly has played nearly as many games at 3B as DH. Delgado played 1B. Alou played LF. There are a plethora of Hall of Famers who were great hitters and weren't good fielders. I don't see how you can discredit the guys who played the field for 20 years, although perhaps were mediocre0, but where Hall of Fame hitters...

I'm not discrediting them. But where are the middle infielders and catchers?
A team with eight Jim Thomes or Frank Thomass will stink. They won't be able to field at all. The Hall of Fame seems obsessed with offense.

Take a guy like Ted Simmons. A catcher with a career OPS+ of 117, 248 HR & 1389 rbis. Not only is he not in the HOF but he was never seriously considered. Or Roberto Alomar. 12 time All Star. Great glove at 2B. Five top 10 MVP finishes. No HOF. A guy who plays 1B, LF or DH better hit the snot out of the ball to get into the HOF (IMO).

[Cedric]

Alomar hasn't been voted on. He will get in, IMO.

[*BaseClogger*]

Originally Posted by Will M

I'm not discrediting them. But where are the middle infielders and catchers?
A team with eight Jim Thomes or Frank Thomass will stink. They won't be able to field at all. The Hall of Fame seems obsessed with offense.

Take a guy like Ted Simmons. A catcher with a career OPS+ of 117, 248 HR & 1389 rbis. Not only is he not in the HOF but he was never seriously considered. Or Roberto Alomar. 12 time All Star. Great glove at 2B. Five top 10 MVP finishes. No HOF. A guy who plays 1B, LF or DH better hit the snot out of the ball to get into the HOF (IMO).

Offensive players are the ones who generate the most value though. They drive baseball teams. You can only go so far with defensive value...

[M2]

Originally Posted by Will M

I'm not discrediting them. But where are the middle infielders and catchers?
A team with eight Jim Thomes or Frank Thomass will stink. They won't be able to field at all. The Hall of Fame seems obsessed with offense.

Take a guy like Ted Simmons. A catcher with a career OPS+ of 117, 248 HR & 1389 rbis. Not only is he not in the HOF but he was never seriously considered. Or Roberto Alomar. 12 time All Star. Great glove at 2B. Five top 10 MVP finishes. No HOF. A guy who plays 1B, LF or DH better hit the snot out of the ball to get into the HOF (IMO).

The HOF has been obsessed with offense since it inducted Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner.

IMO, Ted Simmons should be in the HOF (315 WS, dead even with Joe Torre). Alomar hasn't been on the HOF ballot yet. He's got about 350 WS and you'll get no argument from me concerning his induction. Larkin's in the same 350 WS territory.

Anyway, there's never a lot of catchers who deserve HOF entry. They just don't last that long. Bench, Fisk, Carter and Simmons was an absolute glut. Jorge Posada at 228 and Jason Kendall at 227 are next on the list. You're going to have to wait almost a decade for Joe Mauer and Brian McCann to get into this discussion.

There's 3 shortstops and one 2B on the list. Craig Biggio (431 WS) just retired last year. Miggy Tejada's creeping up on 250, should get there next year. Edgar Renteria's at 211. Jimmy Rollins and Rafael Furcal stand to make a run on 300 if they're good into their mid 30s.

Point being, it's not like any great current talents are being left off the list. Win Shares isn't prejudiced against great up-the-middle players. If anything, it favors them. Jim Thome's had to slug lights out for 15 years to match Larkin and Alomar. The problem is there are never all that many up-the-middle players who enjoy the kind of plate production and longevity it takes to get into the HOF.

[*BaseClogger*]

Isn't it true that defensive ability generally ages faster than offensive ability?