Reds focused on acquiring bullpen help

[blumj]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Delmon Young, the player who fell to Tampa because of their draft position, was converted to Garza.

They had a ton of pieces to work with because of their draft position; only recently did they start to pull off the trades that construct an actual team.

If they sustain it, they've got themselves a model. Otherwise, they've benefitted largely from the current drafting model as much as anything else.

If they do have a model, it has to be more from their trades and cheap free agent signings than from all the high draft picks, IMO. I'll give you the proceeds from the trade of Young, but, they would have been in the playoffs last season with or without Price(14 IP) or Baldelli(28 G), and their only high 1st rounders who made a direct and significant contribution were Upton and Longoria. Shouldn't they have had more after drafting so high for a decade? They obviously got nothing from or for Hamilton. Dewon Brazelton? The 2 Rice pitchers? Not yet. Crawford was a 2nd rounder, so everyone else had a shot at him, too. Shields and Sonnanstine were very late round picks. They got their ace lefty, another starting pitcher, starting catcher, and almost their whole bullpen for nothing that was of much value to them in trades. Starting 1st and 2nd basemen, their closer, and DH for just money, and not very much of that.

[fearofpopvol1]

Originally Posted by blumj

If they do have a model, it has to be more from their trades and cheap free agent signings than from all the high draft picks, IMO. I'll give you the proceeds from the trade of Young, but, they would have been in the playoffs last season with or without Price(14 IP) or Baldelli(28 G), and their only high 1st rounders who made a direct and significant contribution were Upton and Longoria. Shouldn't they have had more after drafting so high for a decade? They obviously got nothing from or for Hamilton. Dewon Brazelton? The 2 Rice pitchers? Not yet. Crawford was a 2nd rounder, so everyone else had a shot at him, too. Shields and Sonnanstine were very late round picks. They got their ace lefty, another starting pitcher, starting catcher, and almost their whole bullpen for nothing that was of much value to them in trades. Starting 1st and 2nd basemen, their closer, and DH for just money, and not very much of that.

Those are great points...some of that stuff I had forgotten about.

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by PuffyPig

Based on your theory, unless we can land a legitimate lead off hitter, and actual SS, a CF and a catcher (presumably at the same time), you don't make those moves.

You improve the team one move at a time.

Just beciase SS is probably our greatest need, doesn't mean you do nothing until that problem is solved. There may not be a reasonable solution to that problem this year. So you improve the team any way you can.

Otherwise, you will never be close enough to being a contender to make that final move.

Improving the team one move at a time, to me, doesn't include adding a situational LHP to the pen.

IMO, position players will have more impact than situation bullpen arms, and we need to solve the position player problems/needs before we address the fringe issues of shoring up the bullpen.

This team has been trying to address the bullpen since what, 1999? Where's that gotten us?

Let's address more pressing needs, shall we?

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by Highlifeman21

Improving the team one move at a time, to me, doesn't include adding a situational LHP to the pen.

IMO, position players will have more impact than situation bullpen arms, and we need to solve the position player problems/needs before we address the fringe issues of shoring up the bullpen.

This team has been trying to address the bullpen since what, 1999? Where's that gotten us?

Let's address more pressing needs, shall we?

If all needs are addressed it doesn't really need to be in any particular order. And a loogy could help I think, especially if we can't get a LH who can get both LH and RH hitters out equally well. It's not a neccessity but certainly wouldn't hurt. I'm sure Walt's fully capable of fielding/placing calls for both a SS and a Loogy on the same day without it hurting the bottom line.

[PuffyPig]

Originally Posted by Highlifeman21

Improving the team one move at a time, to me, doesn't include adding a situational LHP to the pen.

IMO, position players will have more impact than situation bullpen arms, and we need to solve the position player problems/needs before we address the fringe issues of shoring up the bullpen.

This team has been trying to address the bullpen since what, 1999? Where's that gotten us?

Let's address more pressing needs, shall we?

Gee, if you wait until the positionlayers problems/needs are met before you look at the bullpen, you may well see all the LOOGY's gone.

I think Walt can multi-task and discuss improving the team in all areas at the same time.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by TRF

The 1999 Reds rotation was a season of over performance from average to below average pitchers and Pete Harnisch.

The 2008 Rays have three STUDS at the top of the rotation under 26 years old.

Not even close.

In fact the 2009 Reds have more in common with the 2008 Rays than the 1999 Reds.

I'm told the Reds have two young studs at the top of their rotation; and two workhorses to go along with them.

We'll see how that works out for us.

[OnBaseMachine]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I'm told the Reds have two young studs at the top of their rotation; and two workhorses to go along with them.

We'll see how that works out for us.

You've been told correctly then. Bronson Arroyo has thrown 200+ innings in four consecutive seasons and has a career ERA+ of 108. Aaron Harang is one of the better pitchers in the National League. He was dinged up last year but pitched much better over his final eight starts. Edinson Volquez has some of the best stuff in baseball is coming off his first full season in which he posted a 3.21 ERA, 140 ERA+, and struckout 206 batters. Our other young stud, Johnny Cueto, has better stuff than Volquez but he lacks experience. He still managed to post an ERA+ of 94 as a 22-year old rookie with only 83 innings above High-A. Not bad when you consider his youth and the awful defense behind him. His 8.17 K/9 points to good things in the future. That's a very solid 1-4 IMO. And I like Micah Owings a lot as the fifth starter. He posted an ERA+ of 109 as a rookie and was off to another good start in 2008 before suffering a shoulder injury. His minor league track record (similar to Harang's) suggests he could be a solid big league starter. Not to mention Ramon Ramirez, who was impressive in September.

I feel pretty good about the current rotation, though I would love to add another arm like Randy Wolf to add even more depth.

[fearofpopvol1]

I'm not worried about the rotation next year for the 1st time in a long time. However, I am pretty scared about the bullpen. Beyond Burton and Cordero, it could get really ugly really fast if Walt doesn't make some improvements there.

[missionhockey21]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

I'm told the Reds have two young studs at the top of their rotation; and two workhorses to go along with them.

We'll see how that works out for us.

So Harang is now just a workhorse? He had three seasons, 100+ starts, of sub 3.8 ERA baseball with dominating K/9's in two of them. If he's healthy, I would not be shocked at all for him to have a better season than Cueto and a season close to on par with Volquez (depending on if we see more pre-ASG or more post-ASG Volquez.) Harang back on track for a whole season completely changes the dynamics of the rotation and perceptions of depth in my book (not that we don't need a bit more of that depth...)

[Scrap Irony]

It is pretty hard to avoid having a top farm system when you have a top-five pick every year for a decade.

If it's so easy to have a top farm system when you have a top-five pick every year, whither Pittsburgh, KC, and Baltimore?

And, really, considering that, for most of this frustrating decade, the Reds have picked just out of the top five, perhaps jojo's observation about sucking in sucking is teh suck, as it were

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

If all needs are addressed it doesn't really need to be in any particular order. And a loogy could help I think, especially if we can't get a LH who can get both LH and RH hitters out equally well. It's not a neccessity but certainly wouldn't hurt. I'm sure Walt's fully capable of fielding/placing calls for both a SS and a Loogy on the same day without it hurting the bottom line.

I would hope so, but I don't see a LOOGY having the same roster impact as a position player.

It's a given that we need a LOOGY, and I think we should get one, but what's the point of shoring up a bullpen if we have a defense that can't help the pitching, and an offense that can score runs?

Right now we have a crappy defense, and an even crappier offense.

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by PuffyPig

Gee, if you wait until the positionlayers problems/needs are met before you look at the bullpen, you may well see all the LOOGY's gone.

I think Walt can multi-task and discuss improving the team in all areas at the same time.

I thought this team had a great farm system.

Trade away the kids for position players and bullpen.

Let's infuse some actual talent to this roster, as opposed to keeping our fingers crossed that one or two of those kids on the farm might turn out to be something...

I'm sure Walt can multi-task, but I don't see the logic in addressing a LOOGY need before a position player need. Like I said to Mario-Rijo,

It's a given that we need a LOOGY, and I think we should get one, but what's the point of shoring up a bullpen if we have a defense that can't help the pitching, and an offense that can score runs?

Right now we have a crappy defense, and an even crappier offense.

[Scrap Irony]

I don't think there should be any step-by-step instruction manual as to how to improve the team. It comes as it comes, whether that's a LOOGY now or a masher in LF in three weeks.

Whatever. Whenever.

As long as Jocketty doesn't stop after the first move, I think I'll be okay with it.

[TRF]

Originally Posted by AtomicDumpling

Thanks for the nasty comments and distortions. Very helpful.

It is pretty hard to avoid having a top farm system when you have a top-five pick every year for a decade.

KC and Baltimore say hi.

You can have a good minor league system if you are proactive in the international market and make smart decisions.

[AtomicDumpling]

Originally Posted by TRF

KC and Baltimore say hi.

You can have a good minor league system if you are proactive in the international market and make smart decisions.

KC and Baltimore have had good draft position too, but not nearly to the extent of the Devil Rays.

In the last 10 drafts the Rays have had the #1 pick 4 times! Their average draft pick is 3.0 (compared to 12.3 for the Reds). They have had a top five pick 8 times out of 10.

It is awfully hard to screw up that many premium draft picks. Let's face it, without those picks the Rays wouldn't have gone to the World Series. Other than the draft they really haven't done anything out of the ordinary or unusual or original. They had top picks and used them well to draft top players.