Traded

[Slyder]

I will say this now if he ops for the season over .750, to the toon of like .270/.330/.420 I will print off this thread 3 pages and find a webcam and EAT it for all to see. Thats about his career norm it seems if you drop his last two years.

If his defense is League Average or better I dunno what else I could do.

[camisadelgolf]

Originally Posted by Slyder

I will say this now if he ops for the season over .750, to the toon of like .270/.330/.420 I will print off this thread 3 pages and find a webcam and EAT it for all to see. Thats about his career norm it seems if you drop his last two years.

If his defense is League Average or better I dunno what else I could do.

Consider this thread bookmarked.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by TheNext44

4th outfielders are far easier to find than catchers.

Catchers available:

Brad Ausmus (40)
Paul Bako (37)
Josh Bard (31)
Michael Barrett (32)
Gary Bennett (37)
Henry Blanco (37)
Johnny Estrada (33)
Sal Fasano (37)
Toby Hall (33)
Paul Lo Duca (37) - Type B, not offered arb
Adam Melhuse (37)
Chad Moeller (34)
Ivan Rodriguez (37) - Type B, not offered arb
Javier Valentin (33)
Jason Varitek (37) - Type A, offered arb
Vance Wilson (36)
Gregg Zaun (38)

Outfielders available:

Left fielders
Moises Alou (42) - Type B, not offered arb
Garret Anderson (37) - Type B, not offered arb
Milton Bradley (31) - Type B, offered arb
Emil Brown (34)
Pat Burrell (32) - Type A, not offered arb
Adam Dunn (29) - Type A, not offered arb
Cliff Floyd (36)
Luis Gonzalez (41) - Type B, not offered arb
Jerry Hairston Jr. (33)
Raul Ibanez (37) - Type A, offered arb
Gabe Kapler (33)
Jason Michaels (33)
Craig Monroe (32)
Greg Norton (36)
Jay Payton (36)
Manny Ramirez (37) - Type A, offered arb
Juan Rivera (30)
So Taguchi (39)

Mark Kotsay(33)
Corey Patterson (29)
Scott Podsednik (33)

Bobby Abreu (35) - Type A, not offered arb
Ken Griffey Jr. (39) - Type B, not offered arb
Eric Hinske (31)
Trot Nixon (35)
Brad Wilkerson (32)


I highlighted the catchers that would provide close to the same production for the same price as Hernandez (none) and the outfielders that would provide close to the same production for the same price as Freel (12).

That is why it was a smart move.

And, that doesn't include a slew of players we have in-house that can play outfield over the next 12 months until Stubbs takes over permanently in CenterField.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by Slyder

He's not getting any younger and if he was even "league average" in the numbers I could see it. But he was downright AWFUL behind the plate! Anything short of Johnny Bench with the bat couldnt make his defense last year bearable. What would have been so bad about waiting to see if Greg Zaun, Josh Bard, even an IRod would come for the same price? Its not like Baltimore had every team busting down the door to try and get him.

You are paying him to be the starter, why? He's 32 a band aid to a gashing wound thats festered for years. You have Ryan Hanigan, who will never be mistaken as Johnny Bench, but had pretty good results with our pitchers last year. Why not save the effort and go into spring training with him as the favorite and bring in one of those others. Use this year with all the ??? that will undoubtedly be around this team at the start and see if he could maybe be a Brad Ausmus type catcher who the pitchers trust. If Spring Training comes around and Hanigan isnt cutting, gets hurt, etc then you talk to Baltimore who knows maybe at that point instead of Freel+ 2 average spects you could have gotten him for even less just to get him out of Baltimore.

Hernandez's going to start watch and see I hope I am wrong but this has Ramon Ortiz all over it. Not to mention Baltimore got a complementary Catcher in Rule 5 savings that they could now reinvest while if the Reds got this wrong are stuck with him. Time will tell I try to be even kiel on trades (see Arroyo/Pena for example) but this isnt a deal that the Reds should have been worried about during the winter meetings there should have been bigger fish to fry.

When you can sit behind home-plate for a large portion of games and listen up close to what's going on, and know what goes on in the meetings between the Catcher, the Managers/Coaches, and the Pitchers, then and only then will you be able to understand what type of "defensive" catcher a player is like. You can try to use stats to figure this stuff out with other positions, but it's not possible to even come close when it comes to catchers. You need to trust your G.M. and scouts on this one. To Walt's credit, his pitching staffs at St. Louis did well, and they had a lot of stability at Catcher. Walt never went after Offense from the Catcher position in St. Louis, as opposed to the Twins, where they did go after Offense in the Catcher position. This is one area where I'll take Walt's judgement over Krivsky's.

The Catcher we just obtained has 3 years experience at 3 different organizations. That's a great experience to bring to the REDS, especially when you consider the cost, prospects that never would have made the Major League team as a starter and an oft-injured outfielder, easily replacable, that's more trouble than he's worth because he's unreliable.

[Slyder]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

You need to trust your G.M. and scouts on this one.

I'm trying I really am. I was among the few who actually didnt want to hang Wayne in effigy in Cincy after he traded Willy Mo for Bronson Arroyo.

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

To Walt's credit, his pitching staffs at St. Louis did well, and they had a lot of stability at Catcher. Walt never went after Offense from the Catcher position in St. Louis, as opposed to the Twins, where they did go after Offense in the Catcher position. This is one area where I'll take Walt's judgement over Krivsky's.

Walt also had the advantage of have Dave "The Miracle Worker" Duncan taking guys with rubber band and tape for arms and making them pitch well. He doesn't have that luxury here with Dick Pole.

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

The Catcher we just obtained has 3 years experience at 3 different organizations. That's a great experience to bring to the REDS, especially when you consider the cost, prospects that never would have made the Major League team as a starter and an oft-injured outfielder, easily replacable, that's more trouble than he's worth because he's unreliable.

Who is also going to cost 1 mil to 3 mil more than oft injured OF and spects. And my main point remains if the Reds are wrong theyre stuck with him. They can't afford mistakes in deals like this and expect to be competitive.

[camisadelgolf]

Originally Posted by Slyder

I will say this now if he ops for the season over .750, to the toon of like .270/.330/.420 I will print off this thread 3 pages and find a webcam and EAT it for all to see. Thats about his career norm it seems if you drop his last two years.

If his defense is League Average or better I dunno what else I could do.

I just wanted to bump this and keep it fresh in everyone's minds.

[JayBruceFan]

Thats nice

[Kingspoint]

And, I still hold by my comments. Walt addressing defense at LF, CF, RF, Catcher, and SS this season over 2008 is going to make this team outperform their pythagorean projections.

At least 85 Wins in 2009!!!!!

[Slyder]

Originally Posted by Slyder

I will say this now if he ops for the season over .750, to the toon of like .270/.330/.420 I will print off this thread 3 pages and find a webcam and EAT it for all to see. Thats about his career norm it seems if you drop his last two years.

If his defense is League Average or better I dunno what else I could do.

Said it then, and Ill say it again. Ramon Hernandez and Willy Tavares are types of moves you make in FEBRUARY not December. Hopefully we learned and go after the top grade stuff not filler at the meetings next year.

[RedsManRick]

To date:

Turner, 24, AAA
266 AB, .305/.354/.395

Waring, 23, A+
350 AB, .269/.339/.491

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

And, I still hold by my comments. Walt addressing defense at LF, CF, RF, Catcher, and SS this season over 2008 is going to make this team outperform their pythagorean projections.

At least 85 Wins in 2009!!!!!

I was wrong here, as the SS defense went on the DL, the Catcher Defense went on the DL, also (Dusty playing him every day couldn't have helped), the LF defense improved because Dickerson was out there often, and the RF defense improved because of Bruce, until he had to go on the DL. And, I also didn't know that the defense at 3rd Base was atrocious in EE.

We aren't any better defensively right now than we were at this time last year.