Reds sign Willy Taveras to 2 year deal....

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Will M

Baldelli still has serious questions about his health.
Hairston isn't really a centerfielder.
if walt was looking for a guy who can actually play CF defensively to bring in either as competition for Dickerson or to partner/platoon with Dickerson who else was actually available?

Dickerson/Taveras is actually better than Dickerson/Freel and trading Freel upgraded the catcher spot

Except there will be no Dickerson/Taveras in CF. There will be Taveras in CF and a competition for LF that will involve Dickerson, but not likely that he is the guy who winds up there.

[mth123]

Originally Posted by Will M

Baldelli still has serious questions about his health.
Hairston isn't really a centerfielder.
if walt was looking for a guy who can actually play CF defensively to bring in either as competition for Dickerson or to partner/platoon with Dickerson who else was actually available?

Dickerson/Taveras is actually better than Dickerson/Freel and trading Freel upgraded the catcher spot

I'm not convinced that Taveras is better than Freel as the RH half of a platoon. I'm not convinced he's better than Hopper for that matter. He just costs money and limits flexibility. He wasn't brought in to platoon. He's your 650 PA per year starter in CF. If I thought he was the RH half of a platoon, I'd actually be "meh" on this one.

Taveras was brought in so the team could market to its fans that the Reds went out and got the major league SB leader in 2008 in order to sell tickets. Winning games is not the primary concern IMO.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

Something else of interest for all the fans of the "speed offsets low OBP" argument.

LOL. I'm not arguing that speed offsets low OBP. I'm saying that his speed is still an asset. I know he doesn't get on base enough. He's crappy at the plate. But after he DOES get on....his speed's not an asset?

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

If he's on base....will his speed be an asset? Will that speed have an effect on the opposing team?

I'm not ready to pencil in ANYBODY until after ST. And I'm pretty sure that neither is Baker.

First question: No. The numbers clearly show that Taveras speed is not an asset on the base paths. Speed on the base-paths is good. Actually great. But only in the hands (or legs) of someone who uses it well.

Ignoring that you can't steal first, Willy Taveras has shown he hasn't used his speed well the few times he makes it 90' past home plate.

Second question: Dickerson performed nicely in 100+ real, live, major league at bats yet Walt and Dusty have made it perfectly clear they aren't going with him as a starter.

Yet you want me to believe they will sit vet player with the two year deal based on a rookie having a nice spring training?

Really?

[membengal]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

LOL. I'm not arguing that speed offsets low OBP. I'm saying that his speed is still an asset. I know he doesn't get on base enough. He's crappy at the plate. But after he DOES get on....his speed's not an asset?

It is an asset, once he's on base. No one here is arguing that it isn't (as long as his % of thefts is 80% or greater...)

What assurances does Walt offer (or you, or anyone) that Tavares will find his way on base over 600at-bats like a 1980 Dave Collins, 1987 Vince Coleman, or a 1989 Brett Butler (my examples from page 34 of this thread)? Why do you, or anyone, expect that Tavares will all of a sudden find his inner OBP daemon and become a useful asset to the Reds in 2009? Has he changed something fundamental about his game that the Reds know about because of Quirk? Is that it? Is there something to hang our hats on with regard to hoping that he will be able to get on enough to not affirmitively harm this team in 2009? If so, what is it, other than blind hope?

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by mth123

Winning games is not the primary concern IMO.

The scary thing is, they might actually think this is the way to go about winning games. Thats even worse than just giving lip service to sell tickets.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by mth123

The answer is nobody. The real question is why Taveras over Dickerson/Hopper? Taveras adds nothing. If Dickerson and/or Hopper suck, the team moves on to Stubbs, Heisey, Henry and any number of Dewayne Wise types that are always out there (Jerry Hairston Jr is exhibit A of how acquiring guys on minor league deals can fill a role with some level of ability). Instead we're locked in for two years to somebody we know will suck. The question is not who would I prefer over Taveras. The real question is whether or not bringing in Taveras is worse than doing nothing. I'd prefer they did nothing.

The reason it's not Dickerson/Hopper over Taveras is because we haven't filled the LF spot either. As of right now, we can't move onto Stubbs, Heisey, Henry & company because they're not ready as far as we know right now. ST will be a big determining factor for that. But how about this for a scenerio...Stubbs & company aren't ready for prime time. We don't sign a LF'er OR Taveras. Hopper's not over the injury or Bruce/Dickerson get injured. Now what? Taveras doesn't lock us into a long term commitment. We've still got options, now we just have more flexibility. That's it. I'm just stunned by the uproar. If we'd gotten a solid LF'er first and THEN signed Taveras as competition for Dickerson...I bet there'd still be a hissy-fit here. :O)

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

But after he DOES get on....his speed's not an asset?

Clearly not. His EqA is still miserable. His value over a replacement player is still miserable. His ability to score more runs than an average centerfielder is still miserable.

If his speed is producing all this benefit, shouldn't we see the effects in his value somewhere?

The only benefit his speed brings is the mystical "pressure on the pitcher". That's not a bad thing. But answer me this...is it worth harming your team by having an proven offensive zero solely to get a perceived benefit the times when he is on base?

Do you have any quantifiable evidence that his speed has produced any tangible results?

[lollipopcurve]

blind hope

Is that like soulless analysis?

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

The reason it's not Dickerson/Hopper over Taveras is because we haven't filled the LF spot either. As of right now, we can't move onto Stubbs, Heisey, Henry & company because they're not ready as far as we know right now. ST will be a big determining factor for that. But how about this for a scenerio...Stubbs & company aren't ready for prime time. We don't sign a LF'er OR Taveras. Hopper's not over the injury or Bruce/Dickerson get injured. Now what? Taveras doesn't lock us into a long term commitment. We've still got options, now we just have more flexibility. That's it. I'm just stunned by the uproar. If we'd gotten a solid LF'er first and THEN signed Taveras as competition for Dickerson...I bet there'd still be a hissy-fit here. :O)

So we take guys suited for CF, brought in a worse CF only to play other, better options for CF, in LF? My brain hurts.

The issue with that line of thinking is we didn't need to move onto the Stubbs/Heisey set of guys. WE HAD A CF ALREADY. We needed a LF. Walts solution was to get another CF who wasn't as good as the current ones he had and play a group of CF that are better than his current CF in LF.

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by jesusfan

okay so now we have the following...

1. Willy Taveras
2. Brandon Phillips
3. Joey Votto
4. LF please...
5. Jay Bruce
6. Edwin Encarnacion
7. Ramon Hernandez
8. Alex Gonzalez

Not bad if we can add a solid right handed bat for the 4 slot...

Since when does Brandon Phillips play SS?

1. CF
2. SS
3. Respect dude, respect


You know how The Dusty makes out his lineup card...

[membengal]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Is that like soulless analysis?

I'm not sure why you are making this personal, lollipop, but if you have a problem with me, I am available PM. I don't appreciate being lumped any certain way. If you check back, I was one of the very early adopters of the Josh Hamilton experiment in early spring training '07. That was not based on "soulless analysis" but on seeing stuff with him and his swing that made me think there really might be something there, something which had not showed up in his numbers in his minor league comeback to that point in time. What is there with Tavares that promises something different?

As for what I have said in this thread, I stand by it. And I ask again, what, exactly, is Walt basing this move on in terms of expecting Tavares to jump his OBP up to levels where he doesn't hurt this club? Changed swing? Different approach to his at-bats? Watched Max Dugan Returns for the Charlie Lau scenes? What, exactly? Because otherwise, it looks like we are reduced to blind hope. Something Reds fans are painfully familiar with.

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by _Sir_Charles_

If we'd gotten a solid LF'er first and THEN signed Taveras as competition for Dickerson...I bet there'd still be a hissy-fit here.

And if apples were oranges, they'd be a different color. Your position has basically broken down to, "He sucks, but maybe it won't be that bad as long as the Reds don't use him very often."

First, when the sole defense of a player acquisition is that maybe he won't play a lot, that's a complete indictment of the move. It's where Juan Castro and Corey Patterson live. Second, there's already been a positive declaration that Willy Taveras is the starter in Center Field and will hit leadoff for the Reds.

Taveras is NOT "competition" for anyone.

[_Sir_Charles_]

Originally Posted by Ltlabner

First question: No. The numbers clearly show that Taveras speed is not an asset on the base paths. Speed on the base-paths is good. Actually great. But only in the hands (or legs) of someone who uses it well.

I'm rather surprised by that answer. Somebody who swipes 30 to 60 bags a year and is only getting tossed out 10 a year isn't good on the base paths? His steal totals are going up and his thrown out totals are going down. Does anybody really think that isn't showing that he's improving on the basepaths? Or is one year just an abberation?

Ignoring that you can't steal first, Willy Taveras has shown he hasn't used his speed well the few times he makes it 90' past home plate.

The getting home part is dependant in a rather large part on his teammates, don't you agree? Advancing bases via the steal is never a bad thing...is it?

Second question: Dickerson performed nicely in 100+ real, live, major league at bats yet Walt and Dusty have made it perfectly clear they aren't going with him as a starter.

Yet you want me to believe they will sit vet player with the two year deal based on a rookie having a nice spring training?

Really?

If they don't sign a LF'er...yeah, they'll use Dickerson as the starter. I really don't think there's any doubt about that. But to put him in over Taveras as the starting CF'er when all we've really seen is a VERY small sample size of 100+ ab's...that's stretching it. And no, I don't think they'll sit a vet over a rookie completely. I think they'll give the rookie some starts occasionally and work him into the lineup if he's performing well. That's exactly why I like the signing. It gives them that option. Without that option, they'll be forced into PUSHING that rookie into the starting job if an injury occurs to the only 3 other OF'ers we have....not an unlikely occurance given Hopper & Dickerson's injury history. So yes...Really.

[Highlifeman21]

Originally Posted by Krusty

Who would you rather have, Mark Teixeria? Would you have wanted the Reds to dish out 180 million on one ballplayer? Look at what the free agents are getting on the market with the Yankees setting the bar. Do you think the Reds can compete for some of the prime talent? Do you really want to pay 50 million for two years of Manny Ramirez?

You play the hand your dealt with. In defense of the Reds, they are buying Taveras when his stock is at an all-time low. His numbers will probably improve in 2009. There was no secret he was on the outs with manager Clint Hurdle in Colorado. He isn't the greatest leadoff hitter or centerfielder by far but this is the hand the Reds have to play.

The hand the Reds had to play was not signing Willy Taveras.

Unfortunately, they did the exact opposite. It's kinda like someone telling you not to do something, and then you do it anyway...