If Bonds had stayed off the juice...

[Chip R]

Would he have surpassed Aaron?

Would he still be playing?

[*BaseClogger*]

No, he would have been one of the greatest of all time but with less homers.

No, either way he would be over 40 and retired...

[OnBaseMachine]

No way. He had 435 homers through his age 34 season and had never hit more than 46 homers in a season. Then all of a sudden he jumped up to 49 in 2000 and 73 a year later. He ended up hitting 327 homers from age 35 until age 42. He may have reach 600-650 without the steroids but there's no way he would've caught Hank Aaron, IMO.

[Jpup]

It's funny that now we get the news that the "clear" was not illegal and no one knows if it actual grows muscle tissue. Barry is going to walk free.

[jojo]

Concerning the original questions, who knows what a "clean" Bonds would've done if the pitchers weren't juiced.....

IMHO, Bonds is a first ballot HOFer and really the vote should be unanimous.

To me, a more debatable question is, "should Barry's dad be in the hall?"

[RedsBaron]

No and no.
From all reports, Bonds started juicing in the late 1990s. By then he had already compliled a career resume worthy of first ballot induction into the HOF.

[RFS62]

Originally Posted by RedsBaron

No and no.
From all reports, Bonds started juicing in the late 1990s. By then he had already compliled a career resume worthy of first ballot induction into the HOF.

Agreed. He was a Hall of Famer without the juice. But no matter what you think of him personally, when he was at the Frankensteinian heights of his power, he was the greatest hitter who ever lived.

The combination of his incredibly direct and simple stroke, his plate discipline, the body armor on his elbow allowing him to take away the inside of the plate..... there has never been anything like it and likely never will be again.

[pahster]

A question for those who say Bonds shouldn't be inducted in the Hall of Fame: does the use of amphetamines also disqualify players in your minds? And what of other forms of cheating (i.e. spitballs and such).

[_Sir_Charles_]

Well, the way I look at it is that if we're going to keep players out based on personal choices and personal flaws instead of just their playing abilities, then we keep ALL the juicers out. I just don't see much difference between Pete's case and Bonds'. So as long as Rose is out of the HoF, so should Bonds, McGwire, Palmerio, Sosa, etc.

[RFS62]

Originally Posted by pahster

A question for those who say Bonds shouldn't be inducted in the Hall of Fame: does the use of amphetamines also disqualify players in your minds? And what of other forms of cheating (i.e. spitballs and such).

That's a great question. It's going to be debated a lot over the next few years as we figure out how to view the "steroid era".

Bonds is such a unique case. He's a guy many fans don't like personally, regardless of his talent. He sneered and snarled his way to the top as he claimed two of the most prestigious records in all of sports.

I think many people want to use him as the poster boy for the steroids controversy. It's like we can turn our head to the Pudge Rodriguez' of the world because we like them.

The whole Bonds story line would be great for wrestling. It would be hard to invent a better villain.

[Chip R]

I don't think he would have passed Aaron if he had stayed off the juice.

However, I think he still might be playing now if he had stayed off of it. Before all the juice stuff went down, the worst you could say about him was that he was a jerk. I think the steroids contibuted to his knee problems but, as we saw with Jr., injuries can happen to juice-free guys. The reason he isn't playing now is that he has knee and legal problems. Take away those legal problems and he's starting in LF or DH for someone.

[OnBaseMachine]

FWIW, I agree that Bonds is a first ballot Hall of Famer.

[cincrazy]

Bonds is a Hall of Famer, either way. I have a problem with keeping the roider's out. What if you keep McGwire out, but then let someone else in, and only after he's inducted do you find out he was a user. I don't think Bonds even gets close to Aaron without steroids. To my understanding, he started taking them because of his knee problems. I think if anything the steroids helped heal his knee problems, and that his body would have went in the other direction (the way of Griffey Jr.) without the steroids.

[redsmetz]

Originally Posted by pahster

A question for those who say Bonds shouldn't be inducted in the Hall of Fame: does the use of amphetamines also disqualify players in your minds? And what of other forms of cheating (i.e. spitballs and such).

I just read a book about Buck O'Neill and he, over the years, would always say they didn't use steroids back in his day...because it didn't exist back then. His point was that down through years, players always looked for whatever would give them an edge.

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by redsmetz

I just read a book about Buck O'Neill and he, over the years, would always say they didn't use steroids back in his day...because it didn't exist back then. His point was that down through years, players always looked for whatever would give them an edge.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/column...rry&id=2289509

During the Pittsburgh drug trials in the mid-1980s, outfielder John Milner testified that Willie Mays introduced him to a liquid amphetamine known as "red juice." More than a decade later, Tony Gwynn spoke of rampant amphetamine use in the game, and David Wells referred to greenies in his book, "Perfect I'm Not: Boomer on Beer, Brawls, Backaches, and Baseball."

Amphetamines have become as much a part of the clubhouse scene as card games and hot feet. In a Kansas City Star story last year, former Royals outfielder Brian McRae recalled how there were always two pots of coffee brewing in the clubhouse -- one conventional and the other laced with stimulants. "I had to make sure I got the unleaded," McRae said.
While some medical professionals have observed that amphetamines might heighten an athlete's senses or quicken reaction time, the more commonly held view is that stimulants are performance "enablers" rather than performance "enhancers."

The baseball season is a marathon in every sense, with seven weeks of spring training followed by 162 games in six months, interspersed with rain delays, cross-country flights and constant scrutiny to perform. Sometimes players need a kick-start just to roll off the clubhouse sofa and up the dugout stairs.