Castellini to be -on- 700 WLW very soon!

[cincrazy]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

The team's committing to fielding a winner would bring fans.

I agree with that completely. However, it's hard for the team to do that when they're barely getting any revenue from ticket sales. If the Reds sold out every game, who knows how much of an impact that would have? A big one, I'm sure. But people aren't going to come out in droves to see a losing product.

[MikeS21]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

The Marlins traded Josh Beckett, Dontrelle Willis and Brad Penny.

The Athletics traded Mark Mulder, Tim Hudson, Rich Harden, Danny Haren and Joe Blanton.

The Fish & the As are the two model franchises for any team that wants to "build from within" -- and they both have shown willingness time and time again to deal quality pitching to help stock the farm system.

If the Reds are really going to throw their hands up and admit they can't win in the economy, their best bet would be to deal Harang & Arroyo for as many top-flight prospects as they can get and eat contract to get Cordero out the door for as many prospects as they can get. Bring up kids from AAA to replace them, even if they're not nearly as talented. You're writing this season off anyway -- what benefit does having Harang or Arroyo around give the team if they aren't trying to win?

But you are assuming the Reds would get high market value for Harang/Arroyo/Cordero. For some reason, the Reds are unable to get good value from established talent. As praised as Adam Dunn was/is on this forum, you would think the Reds could have landed much higher talent in return than they did.

This tells us one of two things: 1) Other GM's do not think as highly of our talent as we fans do, or 2) the FO is not getting as good return as they could/should. I tend to think the truth lies somewhere between the two.

[remdog]

Originally Posted by MikeS21

But you are assuming the Reds would get high market value for Harang/Arroyo/Cordero. For some reason, the Reds are unable to get good value from established talent. As praised as Adam Dunn was/is on this forum, you would think the Reds could have landed much higher talent in return than they did.

This tells us one of two things: 1) Other GM's do not think as highly of our talent as we fans do, or 2) the FO is not getting as good return as they could/should. I tend to think the truth lies somewhere between the two.

Another good post Mike.

I think that, just like the economy over the last 12-18 months, we're seeing a big swing in the way of doing business. Revenue, except for some big market teams, is going to drop over the next season or two. So a lot of teams are tightening their belt and saying, "why trade a good prospect for a contract that carries a lot dollars?" It's a reasonable question and some (even many) teams are coming to the conclusion that they are better off not taking on the responsibility of the contract.

Rem

[Kc61]

Originally Posted by Caveat Emperor

The Marlins traded Josh Beckett, Dontrelle Willis and Brad Penny.

The Athletics traded Mark Mulder, Tim Hudson, Rich Harden, Danny Haren and Joe Blanton.

The Fish & the As are the two model franchises for any team that wants to "build from within" -- and they both have shown willingness time and time again to deal quality pitching to help stock the farm system.


It's all about the churn -- bring in lots of high-upside kids and hope that a bunch of them reach the big show at around the same time to open a window for your ballclub.


Every other team is out scouring the Latin and Asian markets. The Reds aren't the only team that signed major latin talent this past offseason.

I'm happy the Reds signed Alonso, but the other teams all made draft picks too. Many of those draft picks are as highly regarded (or more highly regarded) than Yonder Alonso. You don't get ahead if you do what everyone else is doing and then lay back while they do more (sign Free Agents, etc.)


The Reds have a plan -- it's bury their heads in the sand and wait to see if the cavalry ever arrives.

Most of the Fish and A's' "flipping" of players came when the team faced losing them because of upcoming free agent salary demands. The Fish didn't trade Josh Beckett until they were facing paying him. They held him through a Worlds championship and probably would have kept him longer if they could have afforded him. Same for the A's with Hudson and Mulder. These teams don't just endlessly flip players to get younger, they do so when necessary.

Now, the Reds could have yielded more for Dunn -- they waited too long to make a huge trade for him -- but let's not assume that he was as marketable as a Tim Hudson or a Josh Beckett. And had they traded him for prospects, the cries around here would have woken up our computers even after we had logged off.

Yet, the Reds did fabulously well in getting Hamilton and then "churning" him into Volquez. They haven't been asleep at the switch.

As for other teams scouting Latin American markets, the Reds were extremely successful getting premium prospects Juan Duran, Yorman Rodriguez, and a pitcher whose name I forget. Yes, other teams signed international players. I didn't say the Reds are alone in baseball. But they made major signings in this area and spent quite a bit for a smaller market team.

Every move hasn't been perfect and the team isn't explaining this plan well to the public. And it wouldn't have hurt to add a one-year or two-year stop gap hitter this off-season.

But by 2010 or 2011 the major league Reds should be stocked with lots of good young players. The guys are there -- in the majors and high minors and some to be acquired still. It's frustrating to wait, but it's incorrect to say they just have their head in the sand.

[*BaseClogger*]

Originally Posted by Kc61

But I'd like to hear Jocketty go on the air for a somewhat detailed discussion of the team's direction.

I agree. I've heard enough from Bob Crazellini...

[Chip R]

Here are some of Hal McCoy's takes on what Bob has been saying over the last few days. I think he's as confused as the rest of us.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/con...incinnatireds/

[cincrazy]

Originally Posted by Chip R

Here are some of Hal McCoy's takes on what Bob has been saying over the last few days. I think he's as confused as the rest of us.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/con...incinnatireds/

I thought Hal did a good job with that article. I agree with everything he said regarding Dickerson and Gomes, and he was also accurate of his assessment with the Adam Dunn situation.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to be a baaaaaadddddddddddd season in the Queen City.

Matter of fact, if Harang doesn't bounce back, and Volquez and Cueto regress (which is completely possible, although lets cross our fingers) we could be looking at a historically bad season down on the banks of the Ohio River.

[SteelSD]

Originally Posted by cincrazy

I agree with that completely. However, it's hard for the team to do that when they're barely getting any revenue from ticket sales. If the Reds sold out every game, who knows how much of an impact that would have? A big one, I'm sure. But people aren't going to come out in droves to see a losing product.

Reds fans aren't going to bust down the gate if the team puts a poor product on the field. Correct. But it's not a Catch-22. The Reds have to produce a team capable of going deep in the playoffs. Then they need to add to that team. If they can, then the revenue will come in order to add even more or at least maintain a viable contender.

But that's not what they're doing now. They need to construct the team first and only then will the revenue follow. The fans cannot be held responsible for a bad team not being able to turn itself into a good team.

[cincrazy]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

Reds fans aren't going to bust down the gate if the team puts a poor product on the field. Correct. But it's not a Catch-22. The Reds have to produce a team capable of going deep in the playoffs. Then they need to add to that team. If they can, then the revenue will come in order to add even more or at least maintain a viable contender.

But that's not what they're doing now. They need to construct the team first and only then will the revenue follow. The fans cannot be held responsible for a bad team not being able to turn itself into a good team.

I see what you're saying.

Fact of the matter is, I'm 23 years old, and my grandest memory as a Reds fan is winning the last game of the 1999 season to force a one game playoff that we ended up losing in resounding fashsion.

Now that's depressing.

[remdog]

Originally Posted by Chip R

Here are some of Hal McCoy's takes on what Bob has been saying over the last few days. I think he's as confused as the rest of us.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/con...incinnatireds/

That link didn't work for me. What did Hal say?

Rem

[remdog]

Originally Posted by SteelSD

They need to construct the team first and only then will the revenue follow. The fans cannot be held responsible for a bad team not being able to turn itself into a good team.

That's exactly correct. I was going to post the same thing but Steel either has faster fingers than I, lives in an earlier timezone or is not as sleep deprived from watching the Aussie Open. My guess is all three.

When Castellini bought the team the message was that they would do what it takes to put a quality product on the field and it was no longer a matter of 'breaking even' as was with Carl Lindner.

Well, the losing stops now has regressed to Willie Tavaras is out big off-season pick-up. Oh boy!

Bob needs to recognize that even casual fans aren't dumb and can recognize the difference between a donkey and a thoroughbred. This team, as currently constructed, is a donkey. The only hope right now is that the starting staff turns into Koufax, Gibson, Seaver and Ryan.

Rem

[Ltlabner]

Originally Posted by cincrazy

I agree with that completely. However, it's hard for the team to do that when they're barely getting any revenue from ticket sales. If the Reds sold out every game, who knows how much of an impact that would have? A big one, I'm sure. But people aren't going to come out in droves to see a losing product.

Golly, if people would just go buy those horrible Ford's and Chevy's the American Auto Manufacturers wouldn't need a bailout.

Provide a good product, the fans will come. You have to take the risk and spend the money to get to being a good team before the fans start walking through the gate.

[Always Red]

Originally Posted by remdog

When Castellini bought the team the message was that they would do what it takes to put a quality product on the field and it was no longer a matter of 'breaking even' as was with Carl Lindner.

Well, the losing stops now has regressed to Willie Tavaras is out big off-season pick-up. Oh boy!

Bob needs to recognize that even casual fans aren't dumb and can recognize the difference between a donkey and a thoroughbred. This team, as currently constructed, is a donkey. The only hope right now is that the starting staff turns into Koufax, Gibson, Seaver and Ryan.

Rem

Chick Ludwig, from the DDN weighs in:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/con...he_reds_b.html

Cincinnati Reds owner/CEO Bob Castellini proclaims, “We have a contender” and that the team is “going to be there at the end.”

Castellini also said the Reds have reached their payroll ceiling by running out of money for 2009.

I believe that if the Reds don’t remain in contention, manager Dusty Baker should be fired and Castellini should sell the club.

I want what you want … a winner.

And I don’t want the slumping national economy to be used as an excuse.

See you on Opening Day.

[marcshoe]

Originally Posted by Chip R

Big Mouth Bob's quotes might be Exhibit A if the MLBPA decides to file collusion charges against MLB.

I've been thinking about collusion today because of some comments I'm hearing. It's an interesting thought if the owners want a salary cap and are trying to build support for the fight (which would likely include a lengthy strike next CBA) it would take to get it.

I'm not sure I buy this idea, but it's an interesting thought.