Bailey's split decision has foes dazzled

[Shawn_RedsFan]

Originally Posted by SMcGavin

I am extremely excited about Bailey's recent results but I would not call on him right now. The Reds have been yanking him around forever. He just got called up a month ago and got destroyed. It's been a couple of years since Homer really dominated, so let him dominate AAA and refine this new splitter. I agree that he needs up by the end of the year so the Reds can see what they've got but it's mid-June, there's plenty of time for that later.

Why not now?? It would be nice to see if could keep a spot in the rotation before the All star break because then that would open up a trade of Arroyo/Harang...preferrably Arroyo.

[bubbachunk]

Seems like we may see Homer against Cleveland sat with Maloney getting sent down. Strange that Homer always gets his shot against the Indians.

[GIDP]

Yep they have no days off in AAA so it lines up.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Here is my question about this, and I am no doctor, but from what is said in the article, the only difference between the fastball and the split finger fastball is in inch of separation in 1 finger. What causes the injury bug with something with such a slight difference?

I watched Roger Craig (whom Dusty also watched) ruin a whole staff during the early/mid '80's, but it did get them to the playoffs. Craig learned it through the Dodgers' pitching staffs when he pitched for them. Again, Dusty was a part of that.

If you're willing to sacrifice some careers, it can get you to the playoffs. It puts too much stress on the elbow. Holding the fingers further apart causes that stress on the elbow. The release at the end puts a whole different stress on the elbow than a fastball does when the fingers are spread further apart like that.

You get 3 very effective years from a pitcher this way, but then that's it.

[RedsManRick]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

I watched Roger Craig (whom Dusty also watched) ruin a whole staff during the early/mid '80's, but it did get them to the playoffs. Craig learned it through the Dodgers' pitching staffs when he pitched for them. Again, Dusty was a part of that.

If you're willing to sacrifice some careers, it can get you to the playoffs. It puts too much stress on the elbow. Holding the fingers further apart causes that stress on the elbow. The release at the end puts a whole different stress on the elbow than a fastball does when the fingers are spread further apart like that.

You get 3 very effective years from a pitcher this way, but then that's it.

Aren't there a number of power pitchers who use it (or have used it) as an out pitch for years? Clemens, Smoltz, Schilling, Haren, Zambrano. I think Jack Morris threw it too and had was renown for his durability.

I don't doubt the claim that it is more stressful, but asserting that it's a ticking time bomb for a pitcher's elbow is a bit much. Pitching is an unnatural act that given enough time will lead to injury of some sort. Why some pitchers last 20 years and others last 3 is certainly way more complicated than the use of any single pitch.

[gonelong]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

If you're willing to sacrifice some careers, it can get you to the playoffs.

I know what you mean and have always thought the same thing. I'd rather have a good 3 year career than no career at all. You'd have to think a front office would be hesitant to sign those guys to anything but a one or two year deal.

GL

[TC81190]

I really do hope that the splitter is what turns Homer around and makes him ready for the majors.

But I have to say, at this point I'm skeptical. It seems like there's always something with Homer that he's done that's supposedly got him over the curve. That he's using his breaking pitches more, that he's taken back some power on the fastball to spot it better, now he's throwing more breaking balls, wait now his velocity is back, ok now less breaking balls, alright let's pick the curveball back-up, hey that slider is pretty nice, he's completely changed his attitude around. And in that whole sequence, a lot of those changes have gotten good results for Homer...except for with the Reds. It just seems like the new splitter is another adjustment in an already long list of adjustments he's made through out his career.

I hope my skepticism is unfounded though. I'd like nothing better than to see Homer come up and have a "Volquez '08" year for the major league club.

[Pony Boy]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

Aren't there a number of power pitchers who use it (or have used it) as an out pitch for years? Clemens, Smoltz, Schilling, Haren, Zambrano. I think Jack Morris threw it too and had was renown for his durability.

I don't doubt the claim that it is more stressful, but asserting that it's a ticking time bomb for a pitcher's elbow is a bit much. Pitching is an unnatural act that given enough time will lead to injury of some sort. Why some pitchers last 20 years and others last 3 is certainly way more complicated than the use of any single pitch.

I think that the splitter is only a ticking time bomb if you use it all of the time. Scott Willamson comes to mind.

[pedro]

I think Bailey's at the point that if he wants to have any sort of career in the majors at all he has to do something. If this is it, fine. Better to have a good five years than none at all.

[corwinator3407]

Originally Posted by Pony Boy

I think that the splitter is only a ticking time bomb if you use it all of the time. Scott Willamson comes to mind.

I'm hoping he starts on Saturday so I can see how many times he throws it. After a 7 inning, 6 hit, 1 ER, 2 BB, 8 K night, I think we'll be seeing him in Cleveland.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by RedsManRick

Aren't there a number of power pitchers who use it (or have used it) as an out pitch for years? Clemens, Smoltz, Schilling, Haren, Zambrano. I think Jack Morris threw it too and had was renown for his durability.

I don't doubt the claim that it is more stressful, but asserting that it's a ticking time bomb for a pitcher's elbow is a bit much. Pitching is an unnatural act that given enough time will lead to injury of some sort. Why some pitchers last 20 years and others last 3 is certainly way more complicated than the use of any single pitch.

True. Morris was always one of my favorite pitchers. Threw a lot of junk, but would usually outhink his opponents and he always pitched "well enough" to win the game. He could win 8-7 or 1-0. Arroyo's got that in him. Most people (probably 99.5 percent of baseball fans) forget that Clemens had an arm injury at the very beginning of his career that "should have" ended his career right there and then. We know his secret now, but back then he certainly stopped throwing any kind of a split-finger fastball. His best pitch always was the straight high-heat. He drew his strength from his legs as is well known.

The bottom line is there are very few pitchers who can throw the split-finger fastball for more than 3 years without substantially shortening their careers. It's just not physically possible for the human arm to have any other result than that.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

I am all for giving Maloney his shot, but his issues in the minors seem to be the same ones people feared in the Majors. That he would be prone to lots of HR's. Still, if Bailey is rocking it, he needs his chance today. Maloney has options. Bailey is out of them after September. Honestly, its a tough break if it were to go down like that for Maloney, but at the same time Homer got 1 shot this year in the Majors and it was his worst game in about 12 starts. If Maloney had had his first shot this year, but pitched like he did the other night, would he have been sent back down? Who knows, but I bet he would have been. Fact is, the Reds must know if Bailey is ready before this year is up. They don't need to know that with Maloney.

Doug, question. I haven't talked to you about Harang before, but you bring up something here I feel is Harang's biggest problem.

I've watched Harang repeatedly for the last 2 years now (the last half of '07 to now) gamble too many times per game. What I call gambling is "thinking you can get a pitch past a hitter which that hitter has home-run power with." Like the Strat-O-Matic game, if you want to think of it that way. Every player has certain pitches in certain areas where they have home-run power. Harang is way too much of a gambler and throws that pitch way too often. It's flat-out stupidity on Aaron Harang's part if you ask me. Some might call it obstinance, pride, or just that he's got an inflated opinion of his pitches, but I call it stupidity.

Here's my question: Is Maloney's propensity to give up homeruns similar to this, or is it that he gives up homeruns to opponents where their hitting the homeruns on pitches where they don't normally hit homeruns? In other words, his stuff just isn't that good.

Harang's stuff is that good, and he shouldn't be giving up the homeruns and doubles that he does. He needs a catcher that's going to put him in check and not let him throw certain pitches in certain situations and when they go over every hitter during pre-game warmups, Dusty or Pole need to be adamant with Harang about not throwing those pitches. There's no excuse for Harang's opposing OPS to be where it's been the last 2 seasons. It should be anywhere from .655 to .680.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

True. Morris was always one of my favorite pitchers. Threw a lot of junk, but would usually outhink his opponents and he always pitched "well enough" to win the game. He could win 8-7 or 1-0. Arroyo's got that in him. Most people (probably 99.5 percent of baseball fans) forget that Clemens had an arm injury at the very beginning of his career that "should have" ended his career right there and then. We know his secret now, but back then he certainly stopped throwing any kind of a split-finger fastball. His best pitch always was the straight high-heat. He drew his strength from his legs as is well known.

The bottom line is there are very few pitchers who can throw the split-finger fastball for more than 3 years without substantially shortening their careers. It's just not physically possible for the human arm to have any other result than that.

Clemens was throwing that Splitter as an Astro as I recall. I remember the 1st time we faced him as an Astro I believe we beat him and someone said (Welsh IIRC) that Jr. had given a good scouting report to the other Reds to lay off his splitter, as a result he walked a lot of guys that day in Houston.

[Griffey012]

Well then let Bailey have 3 good years for us, ship him out for a nice package of talent, let someone else pay him and then let him be hurt for someone else. After all, baseball is a business and the goal is to win, not to see how much a player can do for you over 10 years, but how many titles and playoff appearances you go to. So give me 3 potentially good to great years with the splitty, instead of 10 below average to average without the splitter.

[gilpdawg]

You can't say, "don't throw that, you may get hurt." Pitching in general isn't good for your arm. The injury rate is basically 100%. You gotta throw what gets guys out or you're not going to last anyway, so might as well go all out while you can and if you blow it out eventually, well, surgery works wonders nowadays.