Introducing Todd Frazier, Five-Tool Stud Who'll Help Rebuild the Cincinnati Reds

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by GIDP

You must mean Fransisco

Yes. I didn't state that very clearly, for sure.

Also, there's very little I don't agree with Doug Dirt about, that his different opinion about this has me questioning what I'm missing. But, I'm pretty sure it has to do with my not seeing EE on any kind of a regular basis, so I don't have a viable opinion about his defense.

I've never ever considered him to be remotely "the worst defensive starting 3rd baseman in baseball", but I have to defer to someone who sees him regularly.

Is he really that bad?

[RedlegJake]

Yeah, imo EE is that bad defensively. He's never learned the proper footwork, is easily the worst throwing regular 3rd baseman, and when he makes an eye popper he turns around and goofs a routine play. Plus his emotions seem to affect his fielding. In the old days he'd be the guy the other team was riding constantly because if you can upset him you throw his whole game off.

The Reds development decisions just kill me. This organization seems to value utility - the ability to play multiple positions okay more highly than the ability to play one position really well.

Leave Yonder at first and forget experiments elsewhere, put Frazier at third AND Francisco - they shouldn't be on the same level anyway, and leave them the heck alone. Just play em everyday at that one position. Later, if you have a jam at one spot coming up - that's what trading is for.

Crikes I just don't understand their thinking sometimes, especially with their minor leaguers.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by RedlegJake

He's never learned the proper footwork.

You mean like Hairston? One step and then fall to the ground. Or A-Rod, matadoring everything because he's too lazy to use his feet.

I saw A-rod about 200 times in person and he was always the most over-rated player defensively in the Majors. He was always a lousy shortstop. Nobody had worse footwork than he did. And, then his idiotic side-arm throw to first that put a windmill effect on the ball was as dumb a thing as I ever saw. But, Superstars and prima-donnas don't have anything to learn and seem to get every free pass from the media that can be handed out.

Anyway, DD didn't answer my question. Is he really the worst defensive fielding 3rd baseman that's out there? Go with what you've seen in person, please. There aren't any defensive statistics that measure defense enough to come remotely close to measuring a player's ability on defense. They don't exist, and if you want proof I'll tell you why.

[Kingspoint]

RedlegJake....you live in Kansas City, Missouri. How many times in person have you see EE play defense in the last three years, 2007, 2008, and 2009? I'm really looking for someone to answer this question who has seen him in person a minimum of 8 games over that period. 8 games is plenty to tell how someone plays defense at 3rd Base, if you're watching them closely. So, it's probably better if you've seen him play about 20 games over that time as it's likely you didn't pay that much attention to him for 2/3rd's of the time, unless you sat down at the 3rd Base line. Also, if you're sitting out in Right Field or down the 1st Base line, that doesn't count, either. You won't find a scout sitting in any of those sections.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

There aren't any defensive statistics that measure defense enough to come remotely close to measuring a player's ability on defense. They don't exist, and if you want proof I'll tell you why.

Do we have defensive stats that measure defense to the same point we have that measure offense? No. Do we have stats that tell us whether a player is very good, good, average, bad and very bad defensively? Yeah, we do. Especially when they all agree that he is downright terrible.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

Do we have defensive stats that measure defense to the same point we have that measure offense? No. Do we have stats that tell us whether a player is very good, good, average, bad and very bad defensively? Yeah, we do. Especially when they all agree that he is downright terrible.

The only defensive measurable I'm interested in is your personal opinion about EE's defense (or anyone else's based upon what you have personally seen), because you are a source that I can trust and rely on when it comes to someone's defensive skills.

So, seriously, where do you personally rank EE defensively among starting 3rd Baseman in the National League? I'll stick to National League guys as I expect you have a much greater chance to have seen them over the last 3 seasons than the American Leaguers.

Can you rate him on a Bell curve for me, please? Is he among the 10% A's or F's, the 20% B's or D's, or the 40% C's? Give him a "plus" or "minus" next to the grade if you prefer.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

The only defensive measurable I'm interested in is your personal opinion about EE's defense (or anyone else's based upon what you have personally seen), because you are a source that I can trust and rely on when it comes to someone's defensive skills.

So, seriously, where do you personally rank EE defensively among starting 3rd Baseman in the National League? I'll stick to National League guys as I expect you have a much greater chance to have seen them over the last 3 seasons than the American Leaguers.

Can you rate him on a Bell curve for me, please? Is he among the 10% A's or F's, the 20% B's or D's, or the 40% C's? Give him a "plus" or "minus" next to the grade if you prefer.

He is bad. His range is average at best. He struggles coming in on balls. He obviously has throwing issues. Combined, it makes him pretty bad overall. Short of Ryan Braun, he has been the worst every day 3B the NL has seen in a while.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

He is bad. His range is average at best. He struggles coming in on balls. He obviously has throwing issues. Combined, it makes him pretty bad overall. Short of Ryan Braun, he has been the worst every day 3B the NL has seen in a while.

Thank you. I had no idea. I just don't get to see him.

This completely changes how I view his importance to the team.

In this case, then I'm all for trading him, as I want at the very least a C- player defensively at 3rd Base, and then he better be in the top-third in OPS among starting 3rd baseman. I can't live with an "F" player defensively at any position, unless he's a .950+ OPS player, or the #1 Offensive Player for his position, and even then, I don't think I'd want him.

I can't stand bad defense. It doesn't win Championships. Eventually, it costs you and it puts too much pressure on the pitching staff.

Since this is a Todd Frazier thread, who do you think will be our best "defensive" third baseman in the future, Frazier, Francisco, or Soto.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

Thank you. I had no idea. I just don't get to see him.

Since this is a Todd Frazier thread, who do you think will be our best "defensive" third baseman in the future, Frazier, Francisco, or Soto.

I would wager Frazier. He is average across the board on just about all of the defensive tools at 3B, but he doesn't have a weakness or two like the other two guys do.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

I would wager Frazier. He is average across the board on just about all of the defensive tools at 3B, but he doesn't have a weakness or two like the other two guys do.

Who has the worst foot-work? Who matadors too much and is lazy with their feet?

I can personally teach good foot-work to anybody. I can't teach arm-strength or accuracy. I can't teach instincts for when to come in for the ball and where to play against a particular player. I can teach ball-release, but that comes back to foot-work and putting yourself in position for a good release. Also, I can teach quickness to your left or to your right. It helps if it's natural, but it can be taught.


The reason I ask is that I feel that person with the worst foot-work can improve quite a bit still, if he hasn't gotten to the AAA level, yet. I don't see that being taught there very much, though it does get taught there to those that need it.

[Kingspoint]

Originally Posted by Kingspoint

Who has the worst foot-work? Who matadors too much and is lazy with their feet?

I can personally teach good foot-work to anybody. I can't teach arm-strength or accuracy. I can't teach instincts for when to come in for the ball and where to play against a particular player. I can teach ball-release, but that comes back to foot-work and putting yourself in position for a good release. Also, I can teach quickness to your left or to your right. It helps if it's natural, but it can be taught.

The reason I ask is that I feel that person with the worst foot-work can improve quite a bit still, if he hasn't gotten to the AAA level, yet. I don't see that being taught there very much, though it does get taught there to those that need it.

oops...I tried to edit and instead I quoted.

[Homer Bailey]

Isn't it about time Frazier gets promoted?

Team	League	AVG	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	TB	BB	SO	SB	CS	OBP	SLG	OPS
CAR	SOU	0.313	92	352	47	110	33	1	11	51	178	31	45	7	5	0.367	0.506	0.873

[GIDP]

Originally Posted by Homer Bailey

Isn't it about time Frazier gets promoted?

Team	League	AVG	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	TB	BB	SO	SB	CS	OBP	SLG	OPS
CAR	SOU	0.313	92	352	47	110	33	1	11	51	178	31	45	7	5	0.367	0.506	0.873

Yes. Its not like we have any big time prospects blocking him at AAA. Especially at 3rd.

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

He is bad. His range is average at best. He struggles coming in on balls. He obviously has throwing issues. Combined, it makes him pretty bad overall. Short of Ryan Braun, he has been the worst every day 3B the NL has seen in a while.

I think that is an unfair knock right there. I think he used to a bit but I don't think that is an issue at all now unless by that you mean that he doesn't at times know when to stay put and when to charge which can sometimes hurt us. His range I don't have a problem with he's not Brooks Robinson but his range is acceptable IMO. That said his throwing issues are well chronicled and that plus his lack of focus at times make him close to if not the worst defender out there. One defensive stat that is easy to follow is errors and IMO that tells the tale on Edwin. His errors are usually right with or higher than every other 3rd baseman but with far fewer chances normally.

[aubashbrother]

whats the story on Fraziers arm ? Hows that rate .. average ?