Scott Rolen traded to the Reds

[LoganBuck]

Originally Posted by HokieRed

About 90% of the criticism on this board amounts to faulting Walt for being unable to walk on water or doing its baseball equivalent: trading 4 and 5 starters with ridiculous contracts like Harang and Arroyo for top quality prospects at exactly the spots we need and getting the other teams to take on all their salaries in addition. If he hasn't done this, the claim is he's not proactive. The Rolen trade is a real deal, the kind that actually gets made, where both sides take calculated risks for returns they think make sense for them. We get one of the top 20 third basemen who's ever played; they get a replacement they need to sell to their fans and two decent prospects. Seems an even, realistic deal to me. I see no evidence in it that Walt's not proactive or that there is no plan or anything to support any of the other high-level inferences here.

Zach Stewart is a special arm. Not a "decent" arm, Josh Roenicke is a decent arm. I am not opposed to trading guys, but as Doug said, how did the Phillies get Cliff Lee without including one player at Stewart's level?

[dfs]

Originally Posted by corkedbat

I see it as ill-conceived, ill-timed and not enough value received for value given when it comes to building a winner. I think Rolen for EdE would have been treading water, but including Roenicke and especially Stewart is a regression.

If they can't shed some of Harang/Arroryo/Cordero they really sacrificed future plans on the alter of "leadership" of a 34 year old that can't stay healthy.

[Falls City Beer]

Carrasco has a legitimate shot to be a quality starter. As good as Stewart may be, he's a bullpen arm. That's a considerable difference.

[CTA513]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

It wouldn't be impossible at all to trade for him in the offseason.

If they wanted him they should have signed him in the off season instead of having to trade something for him.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by CTA513

If they wanted him they should have signed him in the off season instead of having to trade something for him.

They won't trade for him regardless. But trading some chaff for him and getting him for a shorter commitment, wouldn't be a terrible move.

Whatever the Reds would have accomplished this past offseason vis offense wasn't going to matter anyway; the pitching is what's totally collapsed.

[HokieRed]

Originally Posted by LoganBuck

Zach Stewart is a special arm. Not a "decent" arm, Josh Roenicke is a decent arm. I am not opposed to trading guys, but as Doug said, how did the Phillies get Cliff Lee without including one player at Stewart's level?

Where I agree with your assumption is that this deal should be understood as Stewart for Rolen. Where, in all due respect, I have to say that you're only reflecting an opinion is in the judgment about "special" and "decent." All kinds of guys with "special" arms never develop into anything noteworthy. Stewart may; I really liked him myself. I wouldn't be surprised if he did. That's the bet the Jays are making and that's why we got Rolen. Scott Rolen's immediately the first or second best position player on the Reds. You're not going to get that for a guy without a position and a possible reliever. We got him for real value--Zach Stewart--which is how real trades are made, something WJ understands a lot better than most of the armchair GM's on this board.

[Doc. Scott]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Carrasco has a legitimate shot to be a quality starter. As good as Stewart may be, he's a bullpen arm. That's a considerable difference.

People seem to easily forget that Stewart's transition to starter is far from complete. Most of the posters here that are maddest about losing him are forgetting that.

He was and is still a valuable prospect. I'm sad to lose him. But I do not think he would have made the Reds' 2010 rotation.

[tripleaaaron]

Originally Posted by NDRed

Reading this thread you would think that Rolen will need a wheelchair to get from the dugout to third base.

In reality, since being full time in 1997, Rolen has only played less than 100 games in one season- 2005. He played 142 games in 2006, 112 in 2007, 115 in 2008, and will probably play in about 130 games in 2009. And that is the worst stretch in his career.

He is a 6 time All Star, 7 time Gold Glove, and as for his "declining power" he actually has better power numbers this year than 2007 and 2008.

By the way, Buddy Bell was 33 when the Reds got him and he had 3 1/2 pretty decent years here.

Phew its a good thing we didn't get him on his worst stretch or even worse as he approaches 35.

[tripleaaaron]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Carrasco has a legitimate shot to be a quality starter. As good as Stewart may be, he's a bullpen arm. That's a considerable difference.

Have you seen Stewarts numbers as a starter? He's more than just a bullpen arm he is a potential TOR arm or a closer as a fallback. Serious potential.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Originally Posted by Doc. Scott

People seem to easily forget that Stewart's transition to starter is far from complete. Most of the posters here that are maddest about losing him are forgetting that.

He was and is still a valuable prospect. I'm sad to lose him. But I do not think he would have made the Reds' 2010 rotation.

But he could have started in the bullpen, much like Oswalt did back in the day.

Look, I wasn't planning on Stewart being an anchor to the rotation or staff in 2010, but I would have loved to have seen what he could do. IMO, there was no reason to package him in this deal. Walt panicked. It's really as simple as that.

And for what? More butts in the seats for the remainder of 2009, because the casual Reds fan (and I hear them right now with Doc on 700) love guys like Rolen.

[LINEDRIVER]

EEE getting 'the hell outta Dodge' will easily rank in my top ten all-time favorite Reds' moments, and I've been a Reds' fan since 1964.

The last time I wanted anybody gone that badly was when Dick Wagner was in charge and thereby ruining everything he touched.

[Falls City Beer]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg

But he could have started in the bullpen, much like Oswalt did back in the day.

Look, I wasn't planning on Stewart being an anchor to the rotation or staff in 2010, but I would have loved to have seen what he could do. IMO, there was no reason to package him in this deal. Walt panicked. It's really as simple as that.

And for what? More butts in the seats for the remainder of 2009, because the casual Reds fan (and I hear them right now with Doc on 700) love guys like Rolen.

I think the inclusion of Stewart was less about panic and more about money.
Sure, I'd have liked to have gotten Rolen for less, but I have a feeling that none of three sent to Toronto will have a major impact in 2010 or 11, but Rolen will.

[MattyHo4Life]

Originally Posted by westofyou

I moved west 27 years ago, I still have a reds sticker on my car (the only sticker at all) I had 19 years of Giants and A's in my face, I live in M's country now, my first real love was the Tigers in the early 70's.

Not once did I think about how the owners treated the fans in that time, I'm not a baseball consumer I'm a baseball fan.

Everything else falls behind that.

I agree with you 100% bro. We both made a choice. You chose the Reds over the Tigers, and I chose the Cardinals over the Reds. Even when I moved back to Ohio, I wore Cardinal red everywhere I went. I'll probably die a Cardinals fan, even though I was born a Reds fan.

[edabbs44]

Many wanted Milton Bradley this offseason for a multi-year contract. Funny how he makes Rolen look like Gehrig.

[Stormy]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeRedleg

And for what? More butts in the seats for the remainder of 2009, because the casual Reds fan (and I hear them right now with Doc on 700) love guys like Rolen.

That's precisely who this deal appeals to. It may be the primary rationale behind it, or just a convenient by-product. Walt and Dusty have stereotypes of the kind of players they want, and it seems to have precious little to do with projected production. Unfortunately, this will work just about as well as the 2009 speed and defense mantra/model did, sans offense and pitching.