'08-'09 Phillies vs. Big Red Machine '75-'76

[fearofpopvol1]

Phillies have the chance to be the first NL team to do back to back championships since the BRM. Only caveat (and it's a big one) is that they have to win 4 more games (most likely) against the team everyone loves to hate.

Unbiasedly (since many of you likely are biased!), is this Phillies team better than the BRM (if they win the World Series)? Some have argued that teams have gotten better overall and I think with no salary cap and the fact that contracts have gone through the roof, you can certainly make arguments on that front.

Just thought it might make for interesting discussion, especially after the Utley vs. Morgan thread that exists.

Discuss.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by fearofpopvol1

Phillies have the chance to be the first NL team to do back to back championships since the BRM. Only caveat (and it's a big one) is that they have to win 4 more games (most likely) against the team everyone loves to hate.

Unbiasedly (since many of you likely are biased!), is this Phillies team better than the BRM (if they win the World Series)? Some have argued that teams have gotten better overall and I think with no salary cap and the fact that contracts have gone through the roof, you can certainly make arguments on that front.

Just thought it might make for interesting discussion, especially after the Utley vs. Morgan thread that exists.

Discuss.

Relative to the league, taking everything into account, they aren't on that level. However, if they were to knock off the Yankees, I might be persuaded to consider the comparison more closely.

[TheNext44]

I have no idea whose better, really to hard to conclude one way or another considering the difference in the era's.

However, the teams are remarkably similar. They both have:

High OBP guys at the top of the order, leadoff hitter has a big mouth
#2 hitter very underrated
#3 hitter great defensive future HOF 2B
#4 hitter clutch power hitting future HOF 1B
Werth = Foster; two guys who took awhile to find their power, but eventually became very feared hitters
Great nameless bullpen
Very strong defense
Juuuuuuuust enough starting pitching to win games.

[Krusty]

Originally Posted by TheNext44

I have no idea whose better, really to hard to conclude one way or another considering the difference in the era's.

However, the teams are remarkably similar. They both have:

High OBP guys at the top of the order, leadoff hitter has a big mouth
#2 hitter very underrated
#3 hitter great defensive future HOF 2B
#4 hitter clutch power hitting future HOF 1B
Werth = Foster; two guys who took awhile to find their power, but eventually became very feared hitters
Great nameless bullpen
Very strong defense
Juuuuuuuust enough starting pitching to win games.

I agree. These Phillies match up very well to the 75-76 Reds. But the Reds were in four World Series during the 70s and six NL championship series.

[Guacarock]

I'm rooting for the Phillies to uproot the Spankees. Without a doubt, whatever warm nostalgic feelings I still harbor for the BRM have colored my allegiances. If the Reds can't go all the way, and we sure haven't for the past decade, then at least as a consolation prize, it's nice to see an NL squad mount a legitimate challenge and especially a squad that conjures up all those warm fuzzies.

[dougdirt]

1975 and 1976 Reds
OPS+ 108 and 120
ERA+ 107 and 100

2008 and 2009 Phillies
OPS+ 98 and 102
ERA+ 113 and 103

The BRM offenses were much better and its not particularly close. Pitching wise though, the Phillies have the edge a little bit. Defensively, I have no clue. Still, I think the BRM offense would have taken over the Phillies pitching and beaten them head to head (assuming somehow we could adjust for era's).

[mth123]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

1975 and 1976 Reds
OPS+ 108 and 120
ERA+ 107 and 100

2008 and 2009 Phillies
OPS+ 98 and 102
ERA+ 113 and 103

The BRM offenses were much better and its not particularly close. Pitching wise though, the Phillies have the edge a little bit. Defensively, I have no clue. Still, I think the BRM offense would have taken over the Phillies pitching and beaten them head to head (assuming somehow we could adjust for era's).

The only clear advantage Philly has defensively is at 3B where the Reds used Rose out of position (though Rose's defensive positioning in the 76 series clearly took Mickey Rivers out of his game). The Reds had a huge edge at Catcher and clear superiority in CF and at SS (though the Phils are more than adequate there). LF was probably a slight edge to cincy or maybe a push. RF and 1B a push. 2B is an interesting debate, but I'll take Morgan defensively.

I like this Philly team and they added Lee to give their pitching a clear ace, but they didn't dominate their league the way the 75 Reds did and the 76 team demolished the post season without a loss. The Phils may win back to back, but they are not among the top 5 teams ever and the 75-76 reds are.

[traderumor]

The BRM wasn't among the greatest ever because of the back to back WS wins. They were among the greatest ever because of the run they had from 70-76. The Phillies are not there yet.

[princeton]

sweep the Yankees 1st.

[westofyou]

The Phils aren't a "great" team in a great league, they are a real good team in a bad league. The BRM was a great team in a better league.

[Sea Ray]

It's not even close. The 75/76 Reds won 210 games in the regular season. The 08/09 Phillies had 4 more wins than the 75/76 LA Dodgers.

To their credit, the Phillies are playing well right now and look invincible but this is the same team that made the 9th inning adventurous all year. They're also bolstered by picking an ace, Cliff Lee late in the year. A team needs to be evaluated on the totality of their season; not just the post season. If that's the standard I don't see how the Phillies even give the BRM a run.

I'm not even so sure if the Phillies will be favored over the Yankees. My guess is they'll have a hard time with Sabathia, Pettitte and Burnett. I think Brad Lidge will have a hard time retiring Arod, Tex and Jeter.

The way I see this playing out is the story will be how the Yankees bought a Championship by signing the top 3 FAs after the 2008 season and not how good the Phillies are.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by traderumor

The BRM wasn't among the greatest ever because of the back to back WS wins. They were among the greatest ever because of the run they had from 70-76. The Phillies are not there yet.

I have a hard time lumping all those years together. The BRM had two significant additions during those years that led to the 75/76 dominant teams.

1) The Joe Morgan trade

2) The emergence of George Foster

Without those two things happening the Reds were a good team struggling with the Dodgers to make the post season.

[Brutus]

Originally Posted by dougdirt

1975 and 1976 Reds
OPS+ 108 and 120
ERA+ 107 and 100

2008 and 2009 Phillies
OPS+ 98 and 102
ERA+ 113 and 103

The BRM offenses were much better and its not particularly close. Pitching wise though, the Phillies have the edge a little bit. Defensively, I have no clue. Still, I think the BRM offense would have taken over the Phillies pitching and beaten them head to head (assuming somehow we could adjust for era's).

The Reds were 4th and 7th in the majors both years in Defense Efficiency Ratio, by the way. The Phillies this year are tied for about 7th, and last year were 9th. The Reds carried a .717 and .708 and the Phillies have been .691 and .695. When the Reds played, the average was about .705 whereas the average the past two years has been around .690.

[PuffyPig]

No comparison, the Reds from 75-76 were one of the top teams ever.

Theses Phillies are very good, but not exceptionally so.

[dougdirt]

Originally Posted by PuffyPig

No comparison, the Reds from 75-76 were one of the top teams ever.

Theses Phillies are very good, but not exceptionally so.

The 76 team was MUCH better than the 75 team.