Bryan Price named Pitching coach

[lollipopcurve]

I'm just not a big fan of the "coaching up" major leaguers plan....

Never heard of this. Who's espousing it?

[jojo]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Who are you arguing with? Because I haven't seen a single post that makes the claims you seem to think you're refuting.

Your problem is that people are pleased with the hiring.

Nope. Please reread my comments in their entirety if you're sincerely curious.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Never heard of this. Who's espousing it?

Your Cincinnati Reds.....

[lollipopcurve]

Your Cincinnati Reds.....

Don't think so.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Don't think so.

Willy T says

[Scrap Irony]

Did Jocketty have a press conference of which I was unaware?

Price is what he is-- a good hire with a good reputation for a team whose fans were horribly worried they'd go after the cheapest solution.

You may argue all you want about his effect on the team, but I say he's a better choice than others they could have hired and it sends a pretty positive message to the fans and to baseball as a whole.

It's not like any of us are insisting Price will turn Micah Owings into an ace.

[nate]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

Don't think so.

I think so:

About his fallen batting average and on base percentage in 2008, Jocketty said, “Jamie Quirk believes Willy got away from his game plan. He needs to bunt more and keep the ball on the ground and get some infield hits. I don’t know if he tried to hit home runs, or what, but Jamie think he changed his approach and that we can get him back on track.”

I think everybody can be right about this. The pitching coach isn't going to dramatically improve the staff. However, by hiring a guy like Price, the Reds, at least with one guy, change their croneyistic tendencies. So we can feel good about coaching direction but I don't think it changes the record very much.

[lollipopcurve]

About his fallen batting average and on base percentage in 2008, Jocketty said, “Jamie Quirk believes Willy got away from his game plan. He needs to bunt more and keep the ball on the ground and get some infield hits. I don’t know if he tried to hit home runs, or what, but Jamie think he changed his approach and that we can get him back on track.”

You've got to be kidding me -- a team is interested in helping a player come back from a poor year, and this somehow represents a team-wide philosophy called "coach em up"? Was this also evident in the team's signing of Jonny Gomes, who was coming off a bad year?

I suppose if one is to avoid this apparently substandard philosophy, one should only sign players coming off good years who are lock-cinches to continue producing at a high rate. Then -- hey, now we're getting somewhere -- no hitting or pitching coaches needed!!! What shall we call that philosophy? No coach 'em?

[nate]

Originally Posted by lollipopcurve

You've got to be kidding me -- a team is interested in helping a player come back from a poor year, and this somehow represents a team-wide philosophy called "coach em up"?

No. A bad player comes off a bad year and Reds official specifically say they can turn said bad player into a good player.

Was this also evident in the team's signing of Jonny Gomes, who was coming off a bad year?

I don't know but you're welcome to type that into google. I remembered Quirk's quote about Willy T quite vividly, you didn't, I provided it.

I suppose if one is to avoid this apparently substandard philosophy, one should only sign players coming off good years who are lock-cinches to continue producing at a high rate.

That would be a nice departure from what the Reds usually do, yes.

Then -- hey, now we're getting somewhere -- no hitting or pitching coaches needed!!! What shall we call that philosophy? No coach 'em?

This is foolish and non-conversational.

[bucksfan2]

I think that a good pitching coach can have more of an effect than many. Every pitcher who makes it to the big leagues has talent. Even the poor pitchers have more talent than about 99% of baseball players across the globe. There is a reason that a particular pitcher has made it through 4 levels of the minors and onto a MLB roster. Now some pitchers are better than others. No one is going to take Micah Owings and turn him into Roy Halliday, that just isn't going to happen. The best coaches are able to get the best out of their pitchers.

How many times have we heard a pitcher credit a better pitching year to moving towards the 1b or 3b side of the rubber? Why was it that HoBail started to pitch better when he developed a splitter, and the Reds allowed him to throw that? How was it that Johnny Cueto could draw a line in the dirt (to make sure he was striding correctly) and improve his consistency? Why was it that Todd Coffey credit his resurgence in the pen to the Brewers letting him throw a pitch the Reds wouldn't?

Good pitching coaches can tap into untaped talent. A small mechanical change has the possibility to add a couple of MPH to a fastball, while make a curve ball tighter. A good pitching coach can make a small mechanical change to improve consistency. So yea, I think a good pitching coach can make a substantial difference.

[lollipopcurve]

No. A bad player comes off a bad year and Reds official specifically say they can turn said bad player into a good player.

What are they supposed to say? And how does this represent a "philosophy" that applies to the team as a whole?

That would be a nice departure from what the Reds usually do, yes.

Sure, getting only risk-free high-performing players is as simple as adopting the philosophy to do so. This is how we solve problems on baseball message boards. Looks to me like the latest in fantasy baseball.

This is foolish and non-conversational.

Sarcasm, and deserved. People need to get over congratulating themselves for being against the Taveras acquisition. Bad move, sure. They happen. Good moves happened too -- thus, the Gomes reference. These are baseball transactions through which rosters are completed, not philosophies through which we divine right vs. wrong.

[TRF]

Excluding Dave Duncan, I think what jojo says has merit. Duncan seems to be able to get more out of pitchers, especially pitchers that were perhaps once highly touted, but have failed to live up to expectations. Chris Carpenter pre-Duncan was not the ACE he is now.

God, not even close.

Mazzone walked into a perfect storm of pitching, and had the good fortune to coach 3 future HOF starters, one of whom may go down as one of the greatest pitchers of all time. I'm not sure that makes him a great coach or just serendipitous. The same could be said for Rick Peterson. He coached Oakland's big three right? Is that good coaching or just a happy accident. All three since leaving Oakland have had a mixed bag of results/success.

The question is how much of Price's reputation is due to fortunate circumstances (talent) and how much of it is due to his coaching (The Duncan Effect)?

[westofyou]

Leo mazzone, Dave Duncan, Ray Miller, Johnny Sain, Art Fowler, Bud Black, Mike Maddux...... Sal Maglie... some of good, some great, some crap.

The ones who keep getting hired are the ones that are often good. Want to know the effect, talk to the pitchers, they'll tell you it has an effect.

[Sea Ray]

Originally Posted by jojo

Also, as an aside, he's likely to resist the marriage of stats and scouts if anyone cares about that...

I hadn't heard about that marriage. I must not have been invited to the ceremony

[lollipopcurve]

The question is how much of Price's reputation is due to fortunate circumstances (talent) and how much of it is due to his coaching (The Duncan Effect)?

And no one here has the slightest idea what's the right answer to that question. What we do know is that he has been recognized for being good repeatedly by the industry, his staffs have performed well, and he had his pick of several jobs within the first 2 weeks of the offseason. I'm going to guess that people within the industry have a lot more to go on than us boobs on a message board, and, given that, I'm going to assume that Price has had more going for him than luck and favorable circumstances. How much? Who knows -- and does it matter?