The Jocketty Files

[OnBaseMachine]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

Just making the discussion a little more balanced. And accurate.

And it took your boy about 20 transactions and $60MM to find any relievers as productive as these guys were last year.

Someome wake me when Walt Jocketty acquires a Bronson Arroyo, a Josh Hamilton (and turns him into Volquez/Herrera), or a Brandon Phillips.

Anyway, I'm tired of discussing this. All you have to do is review Krivsky's time here and compare it with Jocketty's and you'll clearly see that Krivsky did a much better job.

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this further.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by Spring~Fields

Was Dickerson, Votto, Bruce, Hanigan, Phillips, Stubbs, and Janish players that Walt Jocketty acquired or were they from previous general managers tenures that happened to mature into being good defenders under the transitions of time?

Don't quite understand why people are holding it against WJ that those players were already in the pipeline when he got here.

What exactly did you expect him to do. Sometimes being patient is the way to go. Sometimes letting the young players develop is the way to go. Jocketty could have gone out there and his first move could have been inking Dunn to a 3 year contract at that time. How would a 3 year $45M contract look right now on the Reds books? It would be an absolute albatross. He could have gone out and overpaid to get a name FA, a move made famous by our past GM's, and end up with an awful contract.

Pitching, Volquez, Cueto, Arroyo, Harang, Bailey and most of the bullpen, did those come from the work and hand of Jocketty or were they a product of the previous GM’s?

The player resources that he traded for Rolen, did those players come from his work?

Bailey had fallen out of favor with many Reds fans and he could have easily been shipped somewhere else. Looks like holding off on that was the correct move. The book is still open on both Harang and Arroyo. Both have high contracts and would be difficult to move. It is still to be seen what direction the Reds will take in regards to those two pitchers.

IMO Jocketty's job was to take the organization as a whole from the day he took over and improve it. IMO he has done a good job of that. He has traded away 1 prospect of not during his tenure. He has spent money both in the draft and in Latin America. Sure the players on the current 25 man roster have come from several different GM's but when Jocketty took over those were now "his" players. He was/is responsible for their further development.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Mario-Rijo

Not if he can evaluate talent, he could do what the man before him did with financial constraints and make some shrewd moves on the cheap both in trades and of the FA variety. That he has 2 starting pitchers making under market rates shouldn't be handicapping him, ya gotta pay some people sooner or later and no amount of hindsight can change that. Oh I forgot that one guy makes too much money, that is what has done poor Walt in.

Who is under market? Harang? Arroyo? Seriously?

And Wayne's knack for "evaluating talent" is way overblown. He didn't find Josh Hamilton in the cornfields and didn't find Phillips on the sandlot. These guys were former top 5 prospects that he took a shot on. And the Hamilton move has been totally blown out of proportion. These acquisitons worked out well but there is more to GMing than taking flyers on flamed out top prospects.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Someome wake me when Walt Jocketty acquires a Bronson Arroyo, a Josh Hamilton, or a Brandon Phillips.

Anyway, I'm tired of discussing this. All you have to do is review Krivsky's time here and compare it with Jocketty's and you'll clearly see that Krivsky did a much better job.

Josh Hamilton? The guy with the .741 OPS last year?

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

How would a 3 year $45M contract look right now on the Reds books? It would be an absolute albatross.

Yup. A disaster.

[Ron Madden]

I think this discussion is getting outta hand.

I'm getting out of here for a while.

[camisadelgolf]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Six straight seasons with 38+ home runs. Career .903 OPS and 132 OPS+. Has played in 152+ games in seven of his eight full seasons. I think you are underrating him just a bit.

Don't forget one of the worst defenses in baseball that negates a huge chunk of his offensive value and a very high salary that would have meant the departure of Harang, Arroyo, or Phillips.

[BRM]

I don't remember OBM saying Dunn should have been signed to an extension. Just that the return Walt got for him was pathetic.

[bucksfan2]

Originally Posted by OnBaseMachine

Six straight seasons with 38+ home runs. Career .903 OPS and 132 OPS+. Has played in 152+ games in seven of his eight full seasons. I think you are underrating him just a bit.

Lets look at it this way.

In 2008 Dunn made ~ $13M in the last year of his contract. If the Reds had kept Dunn and intended to offer him arbitration it could have been a scary thing. Not only would have have made around $15M but if the Reds wanted to sign him to a longer term deal they would have had to fork out over $13M/ year. Not a good contract for a financially strapped club with defensive issues and their best player playing Dunn's eventual position.

Heck even the DBacks felt that the risk outweighed the reward and chose not to offer Dunn arbitration. You can throw out all the offensive numbers you want (Dunn is a very good offensive player) but the reality of the situation is Jocketty made the shrewd decision in trading when he had the chance. Arbitration just wasn't in the cards for the Reds and Dunn.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by bucksfan2

Don't quite understand why people are holding it against WJ that those players were already in the pipeline when he got here.

I am not holding that against him.

I just don't think those players named that came by the work of the other general managers, I think don't they belong on the Jocketty score sheet, and that the credit for what turned out right or good that the other's and their staff's worked to accomplish, that they should be given the credit for those.

Often you will see discussions on the boards about trades or players drafted with an attached comment that it will take some time to see how those work out. Well, in the case of the players that people are giving Jocketty credit for under the cumulative umbrella of improving the team, those are actually mainly players that now, time has gone by, and some of them worked out. Jocketty does not deserve that credit, the other general managers do.

What exactly did you expect him to do.

Well I expect superior performance from Jocketty over the three general managers fired. Isn't that why ownership fired all the previous general managers and eventually brought in their man from high dollar St. Louis? They expected superior performance, so where's it at?

If what he produces is equal to or less than what they did in the same amount of time and with less payroll than what Jocketty has, while certain ones cast their double-standard inaccuracies discounting and attempting to completely discredit the works of others, while trying to sell that Jocketty improved the team to date, that is an injustice and just not right.

Jocketty could have gone out there and his first move could have been inking Dunn to a 3 year contract at that time. How would a 3 year $45M contract look right now on the Reds books? It would be an absolute albatross.

As much as I complained back when I was more ignorant about Dunn and his OBP and OPS while I focused on BA and strikeouts before I woke up from my cloud. Right now I would love to have Adam Dunn at first base and Votto in LF going into 2010 with the rest this cast of the If's and maybe's on the team. Actually Jocketty dumped a producer there and got nothing back, it reminds me of the pitching junk that Krivsky got in the Washington double teams hosing. Where Krivsky it turned out did not give up much as time has shown. I guess Jocketty did get a part time pinch hitter in the pitcher he got from AZ. While not putting the money to good use from Dunn or Griffey leaving.

Bailey had fallen out of favor with many Reds fans and he could have easily been shipped somewhere else. Looks like holding off on that was the correct move.

As the other held off on Bailey instead of making him a part of a trade.

The book is still open on both Harang and Arroyo. Both have high contracts and would be difficult to move. It is still to be seen what direction the Reds will take in regards to those two pitchers.

Yes they have high contracts, pitchers who were pitching like them when signed or extended are able to get large contracts or they might have walked to another team. I think they would look good in St. Louis with Duncan, then where would the Reds be?

Do you really think that Mr. Baker wants to see his veteran pitchers traded? I don't think so, they are not trying to hard to move any of the big contracts, because they know they need a Harang, Arroyo, and a Cordero. Now they might wait until the half and if they are pitching well and the Reds can see a way to get a good return in the event that they are playing like the last two seasons of Jocketty and Baker.

IMO Jocketty's job was to take the organization as a whole from the day he took over and improve it. IMO he has done a good job of that. He has traded away 1 prospect of not during his tenure. He has spent money both in the draft and in Latin America. Sure the players on the current 25 man roster have come from several different GM's but when Jocketty took over those were now "his" players. He was/is responsible for their further development.

I can't set here and fault you for what you honestly believe and think. To me that is what it means when you say, in your opinion, your thoughts and opinions are just as valuable, as mine or other's. They, meaning your's might be more valuable to me, because I am more interested in what you and other's think than my own tired input and feedback, each of you have fresh thoughts and ideas, at least they are to my eyes.

Edabbs is just stuck after he made his commitment to judge and slam the other general manager, and now that he did that, and then he has to defend Jocketty. He is stuck with the fact that Jocketty has done less with more available talent and a higher payroll than Jocketty’s predecessor's could with less talent and money under the same, "we just aren't going to lose anymore" ownership who fired them.

Jocketty is real close to putting this team back to where it was at the end of Bowden's time. What is he going to say when Jocketty has the same amount of tenure and has done less to effect the good on this club than O’Brien and Krivsky? We will be here to remind him, if he isn’t a no show like his selective omission to answering questions.

I also suspect that you might want to credit and debit Jocketty and his account with the other general managers work and credit to help the balance sheet in favor of Jocketty too, because he is really short on net effect at this time.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by BRM

I don't remember OBM saying Dunn should have been signed to an extension. Just that the return Walt got for him was pathetic.

Except no team in baseball really wanted him, as we saw the situation play out.

I am kind of surprised that this is even a discussion. He passed through waivers and got close to zero interest on the FA mkt. Seems like there is only one ORGanization in the world that has anyone who thinks that he should have commanded some sort of substantial return.

[Spring~Fields]

Originally Posted by edabbs44

These acquisitons worked out well but there is more to GMing than taking flyers on flamed out top prospects.

Oh is that what Nix, Tevaras, McDonald, Hairston Jr, Sutton, Castillio and Burke are ? "flamed out" ?

[Ron Madden]

This thread is about Jocketty and his good or bad moves.

Please let's not turn it into another Dunn bashing thread.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Ron Madden

This thread is about Jocketty and his good or bad moves.

Please let's not turn it into another Dunn bashing thread.

Letting Dunn go was a Jocketty move. that decision and it's ramifications are as relevant as any move that he made.

[edabbs44]

Originally Posted by Spring~Fields

Oh is that what Nix, Tevaras, McDonald, Hairston Jr, Sutton, Castillio and Burke are ? "flamed out" ?

I seriously have no idea what you are talking about. You are becoming more incoherent by the post. Try being a little more concise or lucid in your posts and I'll be happy to respond.